Police abuse

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  • dignindignin Posts: 5,899
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don't think anyone should be hassled without cause. My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it.

    You are right.  Statistically, there's no way that is true.  But what if we amend the sentence: if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not if you are white.
    I would agree with that.
    I think it can be explained (not necessarily justified, but explained without calling cops racist).
    Can we agree that there is more crime in among blacks? That is a commonly accepted statistic. That accounts for some, but not all of the difference.
    Some of it is bad cops and improper training. But I think there is another, more common reason.

    It is my personal belief that as a result of that difference in crime, cops can be more likely to be cautious/suspicious of blacks. Also Picture all of protesters who shouted out things like "only good cop is a dead cop," and all the ambushes on cops the last few years. The majority of those have been black, have they not? To expect cops to go into those neighborhoods and not be impacted by that is unlikely (again, not justified, just human nature to be affected by that.).
    Because the above is true, it leads people to exaggerate that truth.  People do believe the original form of my statement that you amended, that they are better or safer by not cooperating. This false belief puts everyone in more danger.
    Not to mention that the relation between police and the black communities is probably the worst, that would also lead to higher tensions and resisting that would escalate more quickly and lead to altercations that would otherwise not have occurred. 
    I guess my point is there are so many more obvious conclusions to jump to before you get to cops are racist that so many have claimed. 
    Care to answer my previous question?
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,166
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don't think anyone should be hassled without cause. My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it.

    You are right.  Statistically, there's no way that is true.  But what if we amend the sentence: if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not if you are white.
    I would agree with that.
    I think it can be explained (not necessarily justified, but explained without calling cops racist).
    Can we agree that there is more crime in among blacks? That is a commonly accepted statistic. That accounts for some, but not all of the difference.
    Some of it is bad cops and improper training. But I think there is another, more common reason.

    It is my personal belief that as a result of that difference in crime, cops can be more likely to be cautious/suspicious of blacks. Also Picture all of protesters who shouted out things like "only good cop is a dead cop," and all the ambushes on cops the last few years. The majority of those have been black, have they not? To expect cops to go into those neighborhoods and not be impacted by that is unlikely (again, not justified, just human nature to be affected by that.).
    Because the above is true, it leads people to exaggerate that truth.  People do believe the original form of my statement that you amended, that they are better or safer by not cooperating. This false belief puts everyone in more danger.
    Not to mention that the relation between police and the black communities is probably the worst, that would also lead to higher tensions and resisting that would escalate more quickly and lead to altercations that would otherwise not have occurred. 
    I guess my point is there are so many more obvious conclusions to jump to before you get to cops are racist that so many have claimed. 
    Care to answer my previous question?
    You’re asking how I came up with the millions of encounters? I didn’t answer it because I don’t know how to. Its widely reported how many cops are out there, I didn’t think it needed an explanation. It’s common knowledge and basic math to get to the number I quoted you. It’s usually reported about 600,000 police in the country. Police departments report about 1/3 to 1/4 are “street cops.” The only stat that isn’t regularly reported and common knowledge is how many of those report to work every day, but based on scheduling I’d guess about half hit the street at some point during the day. So you’re looking at about 75,000 cops on the conservative estimate on the street every single day. Depending on what you consider police interacting with others that can range from a few dozen a day to literally hundreds. If you count just who a cop speaks to filing out reports and writing tickets it’s a dozen or two on a slow day. If you count everyone he sees and makes a decision to stop for not signaling, speeding, and countless other potential reasons to start an interactions it is literally hundreds of opportunities each cop has every day. Let’s go with the low conservative number of just a dozen. That’s still about a million people who interact with a cop every day. 
    Now out of those million daily interactions, how many result in harassment or worse? Very, very few in comparison.

  • dignindignin Posts: 5,899
    mace1229 said:
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don't think anyone should be hassled without cause. My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it.

    You are right.  Statistically, there's no way that is true.  But what if we amend the sentence: if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not if you are white.
    I would agree with that.
    I think it can be explained (not necessarily justified, but explained without calling cops racist).
    Can we agree that there is more crime in among blacks? That is a commonly accepted statistic. That accounts for some, but not all of the difference.
    Some of it is bad cops and improper training. But I think there is another, more common reason.

    It is my personal belief that as a result of that difference in crime, cops can be more likely to be cautious/suspicious of blacks. Also Picture all of protesters who shouted out things like "only good cop is a dead cop," and all the ambushes on cops the last few years. The majority of those have been black, have they not? To expect cops to go into those neighborhoods and not be impacted by that is unlikely (again, not justified, just human nature to be affected by that.).
    Because the above is true, it leads people to exaggerate that truth.  People do believe the original form of my statement that you amended, that they are better or safer by not cooperating. This false belief puts everyone in more danger.
    Not to mention that the relation between police and the black communities is probably the worst, that would also lead to higher tensions and resisting that would escalate more quickly and lead to altercations that would otherwise not have occurred. 
    I guess my point is there are so many more obvious conclusions to jump to before you get to cops are racist that so many have claimed. 
    Care to answer my previous question?
    You’re asking how I came up with the millions of encounters? I didn’t answer it because I don’t know how to. Its widely reported how many cops are out there, I didn’t think it needed an explanation. It’s common knowledge and basic math to get to the number I quoted you. It’s usually reported about 600,000 police in the country. Police departments report about 1/3 to 1/4 are “street cops.” The only stat that isn’t regularly reported and common knowledge is how many of those report to work every day, but based on scheduling I’d guess about half hit the street at some point during the day. So you’re looking at about 75,000 cops on the conservative estimate on the street every single day. Depending on what you consider police interacting with others that can range from a few dozen a day to literally hundreds. If you count just who a cop speaks to filing out reports and writing tickets it’s a dozen or two on a slow day. If you count everyone he sees and makes a decision to stop for not signaling, speeding, and countless other potential reasons to start an interactions it is literally hundreds of opportunities each cop has every day. Let’s go with the low conservative number of just a dozen. That’s still about a million people who interact with a cop every day. 
    Now out of those million daily interactions, how many result in harassment or worse? Very, very few in comparison.

    That's not what I asked for.

    I quoted the part where you said "My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it". 

    I would like to see those statistics.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 12,406
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don't think anyone should be hassled without cause. My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it.

    You are right.  Statistically, there's no way that is true.  But what if we amend the sentence: if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not if you are white.
    I would agree with that.
    I think it can be explained (not necessarily justified, but explained without calling cops racist).
    Can we agree that there is more crime in among blacks? That is a commonly accepted statistic. That accounts for some, but not all of the difference.
    Some of it is bad cops and improper training. But I think there is another, more common reason.

    It is my personal belief that as a result of that difference in crime, cops can be more likely to be cautious/suspicious of blacks. Also Picture all of protesters who shouted out things like "only good cop is a dead cop," and all the ambushes on cops the last few years. The majority of those have been black, have they not? To expect cops to go into those neighborhoods and not be impacted by that is unlikely (again, not justified, just human nature to be affected by that.).
    Because the above is true, it leads people to exaggerate that truth.  People do believe the original form of my statement that you amended, that they are better or safer by not cooperating. This false belief puts everyone in more danger.
    Not to mention that the relation between police and the black communities is probably the worst, that would also lead to higher tensions and resisting that would escalate more quickly and lead to altercations that would otherwise not have occurred. 
    I guess my point is there are so many more obvious conclusions to jump to before you get to cops are racist that so many have claimed. 
    Care to answer my previous question?
    You’re asking how I came up with the millions of encounters? I didn’t answer it because I don’t know how to. Its widely reported how many cops are out there, I didn’t think it needed an explanation. It’s common knowledge and basic math to get to the number I quoted you. It’s usually reported about 600,000 police in the country. Police departments report about 1/3 to 1/4 are “street cops.” The only stat that isn’t regularly reported and common knowledge is how many of those report to work every day, but based on scheduling I’d guess about half hit the street at some point during the day. So you’re looking at about 75,000 cops on the conservative estimate on the street every single day. Depending on what you consider police interacting with others that can range from a few dozen a day to literally hundreds. If you count just who a cop speaks to filing out reports and writing tickets it’s a dozen or two on a slow day. If you count everyone he sees and makes a decision to stop for not signaling, speeding, and countless other potential reasons to start an interactions it is literally hundreds of opportunities each cop has every day. Let’s go with the low conservative number of just a dozen. That’s still about a million people who interact with a cop every day. 
    Now out of those million daily interactions, how many result in harassment or worse? Very, very few in comparison.

    That's not what I asked for.

    I quoted the part where you said "My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it". 

    I would like to see those statistics.
    You won’t ever see them there statistics. They don’t exist.
     
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,166
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don't think anyone should be hassled without cause. My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it.

    You are right.  Statistically, there's no way that is true.  But what if we amend the sentence: if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not if you are white.
    I would agree with that.
    I think it can be explained (not necessarily justified, but explained without calling cops racist).
    Can we agree that there is more crime in among blacks? That is a commonly accepted statistic. That accounts for some, but not all of the difference.
    Some of it is bad cops and improper training. But I think there is another, more common reason.

    It is my personal belief that as a result of that difference in crime, cops can be more likely to be cautious/suspicious of blacks. Also Picture all of protesters who shouted out things like "only good cop is a dead cop," and all the ambushes on cops the last few years. The majority of those have been black, have they not? To expect cops to go into those neighborhoods and not be impacted by that is unlikely (again, not justified, just human nature to be affected by that.).
    Because the above is true, it leads people to exaggerate that truth.  People do believe the original form of my statement that you amended, that they are better or safer by not cooperating. This false belief puts everyone in more danger.
    Not to mention that the relation between police and the black communities is probably the worst, that would also lead to higher tensions and resisting that would escalate more quickly and lead to altercations that would otherwise not have occurred. 
    I guess my point is there are so many more obvious conclusions to jump to before you get to cops are racist that so many have claimed. 
    Care to answer my previous question?
    You’re asking how I came up with the millions of encounters? I didn’t answer it because I don’t know how to. Its widely reported how many cops are out there, I didn’t think it needed an explanation. It’s common knowledge and basic math to get to the number I quoted you. It’s usually reported about 600,000 police in the country. Police departments report about 1/3 to 1/4 are “street cops.” The only stat that isn’t regularly reported and common knowledge is how many of those report to work every day, but based on scheduling I’d guess about half hit the street at some point during the day. So you’re looking at about 75,000 cops on the conservative estimate on the street every single day. Depending on what you consider police interacting with others that can range from a few dozen a day to literally hundreds. If you count just who a cop speaks to filing out reports and writing tickets it’s a dozen or two on a slow day. If you count everyone he sees and makes a decision to stop for not signaling, speeding, and countless other potential reasons to start an interactions it is literally hundreds of opportunities each cop has every day. Let’s go with the low conservative number of just a dozen. That’s still about a million people who interact with a cop every day. 
    Now out of those million daily interactions, how many result in harassment or worse? Very, very few in comparison.

    That's not what I asked for.

    I quoted the part where you said "My point was with literally millions of police interactions every day, the media and anti-cop crowd would have you believe if you are black you are more likely to get hassled, beat or shot than not. That is simply not true, the statistics prove it". 

    I would like to see those statistics.
    I beleieve I did just answer your question. With police encounters in the millions daily, assuming even just 10% are with blacks, if blacks were likely to be hassled than not you’d see tens of thousands of case every day of police abuse. That just simply isn’t the case. The fact that there are not abuse cases in the thousands daily suggests that you’re more likely to not be hassled.
    Are you suggesting that blacks are more often hassled than not? That if your black you have a better chance of being mistreated than to be treated fairly?
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 3,666
    edited April 10
    I don't think you're going to find any statistics or evidence where blacks/minorities don't feel more targeted, whether or not the interaction was initiated legally isn't really relevant. It's more of the fact that they perceive, and several studies back up that perception, police are more likely to stop, detain and engage them in general. If the inherent bias is what led to the interaction no data is going to be able to determine that, but I think we've seen enough evidence that it exists. While several of those interaction don't end up in harassment, beating or other abuse from an external perspective, doesn't mean there wasn't some unconscious bias in play from the onset which is only being felt by the non-cop part of the equation.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/10/30/560382301/poll-6-in-10-black-americans-say-theyve-been-unfairly-stopped-by-police
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/3421/racial-profiling-seen-widespread-particularly-among-young-black-men.aspx

    On the flip side, you then have the police feeling like they are being treated unfairly. Perception is reality for all sides and continues the struggles to some middle ground and improved relations.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/25/most-officers-say-the-media-treat-police-unfairly/
    Post edited by tbergs on
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 3,038
    Shocker.  Murder is OK if you're a cop.

    Cop won’t be charged in “swatting” death of Kansas man

    Victim’s family is “devastated” by the decision, their lawyer says.



    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/cop-wont-be-charged-in-swatting-death-of-kansas-man/


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