Should Pearl Jam Play in Israel?

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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    good you mention those countries....i had a copnversation last year with a guy is close to the band and music intustry,and told me they will never return there,cos the band lost money at that tour.
    and now you said Italy,i still remember Eddie,when they asked him,why they went to play at Pistoia,Italy,how come pistoia and not a bigger city of italy,
    he said"im going when they tells me to go"
    go figure how they plan the tour,especially the year of a new album like 2006


    ed goes where the surf is. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
    no shit...where the hell he will go surfing at india or Russia? :lol:

    kerala. in the south of india. kamchatka, eastern russia. ;) 8-)
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  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPROPosts: 134,808


    ed goes where the surf is. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
    no shit...where the hell he will go surfing at india or Russia? :lol:

    kerala. in the south of india. kamchatka, eastern russia. ;) 8-)
    there are only 2 and a half pj fans at kamchatka!!!damn so difficult even to spell it!! :lol:
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  • rollingsrollings unknownPosts: 6,719


    ed goes where the surf is. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
    no shit...where the hell he will go surfing at india or Russia? :lol:

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  • IndifferenceIndifference Posts: 2,274

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  • Byrnzie wrote:
    They played Taiwan, and the Philippines. I'd imagine playing in those countries would pose more of a logistic challenge than Israel - perched on the end of the Mediterranean, not a million miles from Italy.

    But maybe you're right. Maybe it just comes down to logistics. I don't know.

    it took them 20 fucking years to do a proper cross canada tour, and Canada is their neighbour. Maybe it was because they didn't like Jean Chretien. :lol: who knows why they choose where they play. I don't think they've ever played Scotland either, but they've been in that general area. who knows.
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  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPROPosts: 134,808
    Byrnzie wrote:
    They played Taiwan, and the Philippines. I'd imagine playing in those countries would pose more of a logistic challenge than Israel - perched on the end of the Mediterranean, not a million miles from Italy.

    But maybe you're right. Maybe it just comes down to logistics. I don't know.

    it took them 20 fucking years to do a proper cross canada tour, and Canada is their neighbour. Maybe it was because they didn't like Jean Chretien. :lol: who knows why they choose where they play. I don't think they've ever played Scotland either, but they've been in that general area. who knows.
    they played at 1992 and 2000 at scotland..they visit every europe tour uk,and opnly twice in 22 years the pass to scotland..
    took them 19 years to play at belfast for the 1st time...they have their way on visiting countries and cities..
    and they played almost to every city at netherlands!!
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
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  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,843
    ed goes where the surf is. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

    This is my actual theory on PJ's concert schedule. They are planning vacations and doing gigs to fund it.

    This is good news for you Aussies. Not so good for those of us surrounded by corn fields. :(
  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Jason P wrote:
    ed goes where the surf is. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

    This is my actual theory on PJ's concert schedule. They are planning vacations and doing gigs to fund it.

    This is good news for you Aussies. Not so good for those of us surrounded by corn fields. :(


    "If you build it, They will come"

    first-outdoor-artificial-surfing-machine-in-london-by-2011.jpg
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,843
    "If you build it, They will come"

    first-outdoor-artificial-surfing-machine-in-london-by-2011.jpg
    Me wanty.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    bring pearl jam to israel: a fan campaign

    http://www.gremmie.net/pearl-jam/bring- ... n-campaign
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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    lukin2006 wrote:
    bring pearl jam to israel: a fan campaign

    http://www.gremmie.net/pearl-jam/bring- ... n-campaign

    Why does the article say (probably not boom)???? Am I missing something?
  • badbrains wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    bring pearl jam to israel: a fan campaign

    http://www.gremmie.net/pearl-jam/bring- ... n-campaign

    Why does the article say (probably not boom)???? Am I missing something?

    I think Gremmie doesn't like Boom. Can't say for sure, just a hunch.
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  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    badbrains wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    bring pearl jam to israel: a fan campaign

    http://www.gremmie.net/pearl-jam/bring- ... n-campaign

    Why does the article say (probably not boom)???? Am I missing something?

    I don't know why. I do know this, It's up to them if they want to play Isreal.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • JK18472JK18472 Posts: 153
    have any of you been to Israel?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JK18472 wrote:
    have any of you been to Israel?

    Have you been to Palestine and the occupied territories?
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

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  • pjambamapjambama Posts: 126
    unfortunately the palestinians have a terrorist organization that runs the palestinians and hamas only condition for peace. destruction of israel

    that is why there was never peace when Arafat a terrorist turned politician had numerous opportunities with several presidents to make peace and always walked away because he wanted the destruction of israel just like hamas, a terrorist organization just like hezbollah and bin laden terrorist organization. Hamas rejects any recognition of the Jewish state,

    http://news.yahoo.com/abbas-names-acade ... 33518.html

    RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas named British-educated political independent Rami Hamdallah as new prime minister on Sunday, a move that was immediately condemned by Gaza Strip rulers Hamas.
    Abbas and the militant Islamist group agreed in principle last month to form a unity government for the divided Palestinian territories, and a Hamas spokesman said Hamdallah's appointment threw that into doubt.
    Fawzi Barhoum told Reuters "Abbas should have implemented the reconciliation (deal)" achieved in Cairo last month, rather than name his own independent candidate as prime minister.
    The group called Hamdallah's appointment "illegal."
    But official Palestinian news agency, WAFA, said that in naming Hamdallah, Abbas, who has sought to end abuse of the Islamist group's activists by security forces in the West Bank, had "stressed his commitment to reconciliation" with Hamas.
    A little known figure outside the Palestinian territories, Hamdallah is a professor of linguistics who has been president of An Najah National University in the West Bank's largest city since 1998.
    He will replace Western-favored economist Salam Fayyad who quit in April and formally leaves office this month.
    "President Abbas has designated Rami Hamdallah to form a new cabinet," the official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity. Palestinian and Israeli media also reported the appointment.
    Led by the secular Fatah party, Abbas' Western-backed Palestinian Authority has pursued surveillance, firings, arrests and torture to bar its Islamist rivals from public life in the West Bank,

    since Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip enclave in 2007.
    RIFT
    Political attempts to heal the rift have foundered in the past largely on differences over policy toward Israel.
    Hamas rejects any recognition of the Jewish state, while Abbas' Fatah party signed an interim deal with Israel in 1993 and is a party to U.S.-brokered efforts to revive peace talks that broke down in a dispute over Jewish settlements in 2010.
    US Secretary of State John Kerry has met with little success in efforts to renew peace talks. The Palestinians want a settlement construction freeze while Israel insists talks should be held without preconditions.
    Hamdallah also pledged his commitment to Abbas's agenda of returning to the table with a goal of establishing an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, the WAFA agency said.
    Under Palestinian law, he has up to six weeks to form a government.
    Fayyad, a former World Bank official credited with building Palestinian institutions needed to gain independence from Israel, resigned over an economic crisis caused by cuts in Western funds and Israeli freezes on money transfers.
    Fayyad's departure was seen as a major blow to the Palestinians' Western backers.
    Media reports have quoted Fayyad as saying he would have stayed on had he thought Kerry's initiative would succeed. A trusted gate keeper of Western aid, Fayyad's absence may renew scrutiny of Palestinian accounts and accusations of corruption.
    The United States and parts of Europe reduced funding for the Palestinians late last year in protest at
    Abbas' winning of de facto United Nations statehood recognition, which Washington objected to as an attempt to bypass direct talks with Israel.
    Kerry has promised $4 billion in aid but given few details.
    (Reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza and Ali Sawafta in Ramallah; Writing by Allyn Fisher-Ilan; editing by Patrick Graham)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pjambama wrote:
    unfortunately the palestinians have a terrorist organization that runs the palestinians and hamas only condition for peace. destruction of israel.

    Talking of terrorism, the Israeli's murdered over 1000 Palestinian civilians during it's assault on Gaza in 2008-2009. 1000 civilians, including over 400 children. How's that for terrorism?


    Oh, and here's something else for you to think about:


    http://www.sott.net/article/250013-Jewi ... Time-by-US
    Jewish Settler Attacks on Palestinians Named 'Terrorist Incidents' for First Time by US
    Mon, 20 Aug 2012


    A recent US State Department terrorism report listed violence by Jewish settlers on Palestinians in the West Bank as "terrorist incidents," for the first time, following a recent upsurge in such attacks.

    "Attacks by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian residents, property and places of worship in the West Bank continued," said the Country Reports on Terrorism 2011.

    According to the UN, violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians and their property, mosques and farmland has increased by almost 150% since 2009...

    According to the UN office for humanitarian affairs, three Palestinians were killed and 183 injured by settlers in 2011 alone. 10,000 trees were damaged or destroyed. More than 90% of complaints filed with Israeli police were closed without charges.
    pjambama wrote:
    Arafat a terrorist turned politician had numerous opportunities with several presidents to make peace and always walked away

    Such as?
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • pjambamapjambama Posts: 126
    And the use of apartheid is being misused here and expose there ignorance. here is one the black leaders from south africa( Rev. Dr. Kenneth Meshoehat) actually experieced apartheid and knows what it is like and totally disagrees with the deception that is being published


    On my recent trip to San Francisco, I was deeply disturbed to learn about the posters in The City accusing Israel of apartheid. As a black South African who lived under apartheid, this system was implemented in South Africa to subjugate people of color and deny them a variety of their rights. In my view, Israel cannot be compared to apartheid in South Africa. Those who make the accusation expose their ignorance of what apartheid really is.

    Apartheid was a legal system of segregation and oppression based on skin color, with a very small white minority dominating over the vast majority of people of color.

    As a black South African under apartheid, I, among other things, could not vote, nor could I freely travel the landscape of South Africa. No person of color could hold high government office. The races were strictly segregated at sports arenas, public restrooms, schools and on public transportation. People of color had inferior hospitals, medical care and education. If a white doctor was willing to take a black patient, he had to examine him or her in a back room or some other hidden place.

    In my numerous visits to Israel, I did not see any of the above. My understanding of the Israeli legal system is that equal rights are enshrined in law. Black, brown and white Jews and the Arab minority mingle freely in all public places, universities, restaurants, voting stations and public transportation. All people have the right to vote. The Arab minority has political parties, serves in the Israeli parliament (Knesset) and holds positions in government ministries, the police force and the security services. In hospitals, Palestinian patients lie in beds next to Israeli Jews, and doctors and nurses are as likely to be Israeli Arabs as Jews. I also understand that an Israeli Arab judge presided over the trial of former Israeli President Moshe Katsav, who was convicted of misconduct. An Ethiopian Jew recently won the title of Miss Israel. None of the above was legally permissible in apartheid South Africa!

    I believe that it is slanderous and deceptive for Israel’s self-defense measures against the terrorists’ campaign of suicide bombing, rocket attacks and other acts of terrorism that have occurred, and continue to occur, to be labeled as apartheid. I am shocked by the claim that the free, diverse, democratic state of Israel practices apartheid. This ridiculous accusation trivializes the word apartheid, minimizing and belittling the magnitude of the racism and suffering endured by South Africans of color.

    I urge all people, young people in particular, to visit Israel and learn the facts for themselves so that they can confidently refute these false allegations against Israel. The misapplication of the term apartheid makes a mockery of a grievous injustice and threatens to undermine the true meaning of the term.

    In my view, Israel is a model of democracy, inclusion and pluralism that can be emulated by many nations, particularly in the Middle East.
  • pjambamapjambama Posts: 126
    [
    pjambama wrote:
    Arafat a terrorist turned politician had numerous opportunities with several presidents to make peace and always walked away

    Such as?[/quote]


    Pick a us President in the last 25+ years including the current one. I'm not sure if reagan or carter were ever involved but the rest were. Arafat was always in bed with hamas since he was always a terrorist who tried to become a politician and hamas wants the destruction of israel(NO EXCEPTION). He could have had peace over 20 years ago but that was no his true agenda
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2013
    pjambama wrote:
    the use of apartheid is being misused here and expose there ignorance. here is one the black leaders from south africa( Rev. Dr. Kenneth Meshoehat) actually experieced apartheid and knows what it is like and totally disagrees with the deception that is being published


    On my recent trip to San Francisco, I was deeply disturbed to learn about the posters in The City accusing Israel of apartheid. As a black South African who lived under apartheid, this system was implemented in South Africa to subjugate people of color and deny them a variety of their rights. In my view, Israel cannot be compared to apartheid in South Africa. Those who make the accusation expose their ignorance of what apartheid really is.

    Apartheid was a legal system of segregation and oppression based on skin color, with a very small white minority dominating over the vast majority of people of color.

    As a black South African under apartheid, I, among other things, could not vote, nor could I freely travel the landscape of South Africa. No person of color could hold high government office. The races were strictly segregated at sports arenas, public restrooms, schools and on public transportation. People of color had inferior hospitals, medical care and education. If a white doctor was willing to take a black patient, he had to examine him or her in a back room or some other hidden place.

    In my numerous visits to Israel, I did not see any of the above. My understanding of the Israeli legal system is that equal rights are enshrined in law. Black, brown and white Jews and the Arab minority mingle freely in all public places, universities, restaurants, voting stations and public transportation. All people have the right to vote. The Arab minority has political parties, serves in the Israeli parliament (Knesset) and holds positions in government ministries, the police force and the security services. In hospitals, Palestinian patients lie in beds next to Israeli Jews, and doctors and nurses are as likely to be Israeli Arabs as Jews. I also understand that an Israeli Arab judge presided over the trial of former Israeli President Moshe Katsav, who was convicted of misconduct. An Ethiopian Jew recently won the title of Miss Israel. None of the above was legally permissible in apartheid South Africa!

    I believe that it is slanderous and deceptive for Israel’s self-defense measures against the terrorists’ campaign of suicide bombing, rocket attacks and other acts of terrorism that have occurred, and continue to occur, to be labeled as apartheid. I am shocked by the claim that the free, diverse, democratic state of Israel practices apartheid. This ridiculous accusation trivializes the word apartheid, minimizing and belittling the magnitude of the racism and suffering endured by South Africans of color.

    I urge all people, young people in particular, to visit Israel and learn the facts for themselves so that they can confidently refute these false allegations against Israel. The misapplication of the term apartheid makes a mockery of a grievous injustice and threatens to undermine the true meaning of the term.

    In my view, Israel is a model of democracy, inclusion and pluralism that can be emulated by many nations, particularly in the Middle East.

    Definition of the Crime of Apartheid

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_a ... _apartheid


    International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid,
    Article II



    For the purpose of the present Convention, the term 'the crime of apartheid', which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhumane acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

    Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person
    By murder of members of a racial group or groups;
    By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;
    By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;
    Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;
    Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognised trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;
    Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;
    Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
    Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.



    http://www.ceia-sc.org/page55/page112/p ... .laws.html
    Israel's Apartheid Laws


    1. Identity and Citizenship

    Law of Return (1950)Grants right of immigration to Jews born anywhere in the world. Amended in 1970 to extend this right to “a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew.” A “Jew” is defined as “a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.”

    Non-Jewish native-born Palestinians – most importantly those who fled during the Zionist massacres in 1947 and 1948 – are in most cases prevented from returning.

    Nationality (/Citizenship) Law (1952)Confers automatic citizenship upon all who immigrate under the Law of Return. Non-Jews – including native-born Palestinians – must prove residency and pass other tests; citizenship is granted at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior.

    Under the new interim policy for “family unification” passed by the Israeli Cabinet in 2002, and made part of the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law by the Knesset in 2003, a discriminatory system has been put in place preventing applications for residency or citizenship from Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens.

    Population Registry Law (1965)Requires all residents of Israel to register their nationality – Jewish, Arab, Druze – with the Population Registry and to obtain an identity card carrying this information.

    Identity Card (Possession and Presentation) Law (1982)Residents must carry identity cards at all times and present them to “senior police officers, to the heads of local authorities, or to police officers or soldiers on duty when requested to do so.”

    2. Land

    Absentee Property Law (1950)Classifies the personal property of Palestinians who fled during the Zionist terror campaign of 1947/48 as “absentee property” and places it within the power of the Custodian of Absentee Property. According to the law, even the property of Palestinians who are present within the newly created state of Israel, but are not physically present on their property (“internal refugees”), becomes “absentee property.” This creates the category of “present absentees.”

    Land Acquisition (Validity of Acts and Compensation) Law (1953)Confiscates the land of more than 400 Palestinian villages; “validates” retroactively their use for military purposes and for Jewish settlements.

    Development Authority (Transfer of Property Law) (1950)Transfers confiscated Palestinian villages and private property to the Development Authority, which is empowered to dispose of it in the interests of the State, giving priorty to the Jewish National Fund – a Zionist organization aimed at settling Jewish immigrants to Israel. Both the JNF and the Jewish Agency – organizations that act exclusively in the interest of Jews – take on the status of quasi-governmental organizations within the framework of the Development Authority Law.

    World Zionist Organization (Jewish Agency (Status) Law (1952)Establishes the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency as organizations with governmental status in fulfilling Zionist objectives – the immigration and settlement of Jews in Palestine.

    National Planning and Building Law (1965)Creates a system of discriminatory zoning that freezes existing Arab villages while providing for the expansion of Jewish settlements. The law also re-classifies a large number of Arab villages as “non-residential” creating the “unrecognized villages.” These villages do not receive basic municipal services such as water and electricity; all buildings are threatened with demolition orders.

    Land Acquisition in the Negev (Peace Treaty with Egypt) Law (1980)Seizes thousands of dunums of land from Bedouins for the purpose of expanding Jewish settlements.

    3. Political Participation

    Basic Law: The Knesset (1958)
    Passed in 1985, Section 7A(1) bars a list of candidates from participation in elections to the Knesset “if its aims or actions, expressly or by implication” deny “the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people.”

    In 2002 both Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law: the Knesset and the Law of Political Parties were amended further to bar those whose goals or actions, directly or indirectly, “support armed struggle of an enemy state or of a terror organization, against the State of Israel.” These amendments were added expressly to curtail the political participation of Palestinian Arabs within Israel – such as Azmi Bishara – who have expressed solidarity with Palestinians resisting military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

    The Law of Political Parties (1992)Bars the Registrar of Political Parties from registering a political party if it denies “the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic State.”


    4. Judicial Practice: Equal Protection Cases

    The Israeli courts – guided by the Supreme Court – have consistently decided that discrimination between Arabs and Jews is legitimate based on the founding principles of Israel as a state for the Jewish people; “nationality” is considered a legitimate basis for discrimination.

    In the State of Israel vs. Ashgoyev (1988), an Israeli settler was convicted by the Tel Aviv District Court of shooting a Palestinian child. The judge sentenced him to a suspended jail term of six months and community service. When challenged by critics, the trial judge, Uri Shtruzman, said: “It is wrong to demand in the name of equality, equal bearing and equal sentences to two offenders who have different nationalities who break the laws of the State. The sentence that deters the one and his audience, does not deter the other and his community.”
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Recognition of Apartheid in Israel by former South African leaders:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and ... and_Israel

    Jacobus Johannes Fouché, South African Minister of Defence during the apartheid era, compared the two states and said that Israel also practiced apartheid.

    Former deputy mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti relates in his 1986 book Conflicts and Contradictions that during the 1970s, an official of the South African apartheid government compared Israeli-Palestinian relations to South African policy for the Transkei in a meeting. The Israeli officials present expressed shock at the comparison, and the South African official said "I understand your reaction. But aren't we actually doing the same thing? We are faced with the same existential problem, therefore we arrive at the same solution. The only difference is that yours is pragmatic and ours is ideological."

    On 24 November 2009, the South African government responded to Israeli plans to expand the settlement of Gilo in East Jerusalem by condemning it harshly, stating that "We condemn the fact that Israeli settlement expansion in East Jerusalem is coupled with Israel's campaign to evict and displace the original Palestinian residents from the City." The South African government drew a parallel between Israel's actions in Jerusalem and forced removals of persons effected as part of the South African apartheid regime.

    On 21 April 2010, the South African government expressed "the greatest concern" over Israeli Infiltration Order 1650, saying that the order has a broad definition of "infiltrator" and unclear terms as to which permits would allow a person to reside in the West Bank, as well as how valid residency might be proven. The South African government said the terms of the order are "reminiscent of pass laws under apartheid South Africa"


    Recognition of Apartheid in Israel by former Israeli leaders:

    According to former Italian Prime Minister Massimo d'Alema, former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had described to him "at length" that he felt the "bantustan model" was the most appropriate solution to the conflict in the West Bank. The term “Bantustan” historically refers to the separate territorial areas designated as homelands under the South African apartheid State. Adam and Moodley explain that Israeli officials such as Sharon and Ehud Barak used the analogy "self-servingly in their exhortations and rationalizations" and that they have repeatedly deplored the occupation and seeming 'South Africanization', yet "have done everything to entrench it".

    Shulamit Aloni, who served as Minister for Education under Yitzhak Rabin, discussed Israeli practices in the West Bank in an article published in the Israeli daily Yediot Acharonot. Aloni wrote that "Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population. The US Jewish Establishment’s onslaught on former President Jimmy Carter is based on him daring to tell the truth which is known to all: through its army, the government of Israel practises a brutal form of Apartheid in the territory it occupies."

    Yossi Sarid, who served as environment minister under Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, writing in Haaretz stated that "the white Afrikaners, too, had reasons for their segregation policy; they, too, felt threatened — a great evil was at their door, and they were frightened, out to defend themselves. Unfortunately, however, all good reasons for apartheid are bad reasons; apartheid always has a reason, and it never has a justification. And what acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck - it is apartheid."

    Jamal Zahalka, an Israeli-Arab member of the Knesset argued that an apartheid system has already taken shape in that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are separated into "cantons" and Palestinians are required to carry permits to travel between them. Azmi Bishara, a former Knesset member, argued that the Palestinian situation had been caused by "colonialist apartheid."

    Michael Ben-Yair, attorney-general of Israel from 1993 to 1996 referred to Israel establishing "an apartheid regime in the occupied territories" in an essay published in Haaretz
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2013
    pjambama wrote:
    Pick a us President in the last 25+ years including the current one. I'm not sure if reagan or carter were ever involved but the rest were.

    You pick one. Go ahead and name just one of the so-called 'numerous opportunities' that Arafat allegedly 'walked away from'. I'm waiting.

    pjambama wrote:
    Arafat was always in bed with hamas since he was always a terrorist who tried to become a politician and hamas wants the destruction of israel(NO EXCEPTION). He could have had peace over 20 years ago but that was no his true agenda

    This just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Fatah, headed by Arafat, and Hamas were actively opposed to each other, often violently.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Chomsky's views on the application of the term 'Apartheid' in Israel:

    http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20080606.htm

    Barat: The word apartheid is more and more often used by NGO's and charities to describe Israel's actions towards the Palestinians (in Gaza, the OPT but also in Israel itself). Is the situation in Palestine and Israel comparable to Apartheid South Africa?

    Noam Chomsky: There can be no definite answer to such questions. There are similarities and differences. Within Israel itself, there is serious discrimination, but it's very far from South African Apartheid. Within the occupied territories, it's a different story. In 1997, I gave the keynote address at Ben-Gurion University in a conference on the anniversary of the 1967 war. I read a paragraph from a standard history of South Africa. No comment was necessary. Looking more closely, the situation in the OT differs in many ways from Apartheid. In some respects, South African Apartheid was more vicious than Israeli practices, and in some respects the opposite is true. To mention one example, White South Africa depended on Black labor. The large majority of the population could not be expelled. At one time Israel relied on cheap and easily exploited Palestinian labor, but they have long ago been replaced by the miserable of the earth from Asia, Eastern Europe, and elsewhere. Israelis would mostly breathe a sigh of relief if Palestinians were to disappear. And it is no secret that the policies that have taken shape accord well with the recommendations of Moshe Dayan right after the 1967 war : Palestinians will "continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave." More extreme recommendations have been made by highly regarded left humanists in the United States, for example Michael Walzer of the Institute for Advanced Studies in Princeton and editor of the democratic socialist journal Dissent, who advised 35 years ago that since Palestinians are "marginal to the nation," they should be "helped" to leave. He was referring to Palestinian citizens of Israel itself, a position made familiar more recently by the ultra-right Avigdor Lieberman, and now being picked up in the Israeli mainstream. I put aside the real fanatics, like Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, who declares that Israel never kills civilians, only terrorists, so that the definition of "terrorist" is "killed by Israel"; and Israel should aim for a kill ratio of 1000 to zero, which means "exterminate the brutes" completely. It is of no small significance that advocates of these views are regarded with respect in enlightened circles in the US, indeed the West. One can imagine the reaction if such comments were made about Jews. On the query, to repeat, there can be no clear answer as to whether the analogy is appropriate.

    Barat: How can Israel reach a settlement with an organization which declares that it will never recognize Israel and whose charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state? If Hamas really wants a settlement, why won't it recognize Israel?

    Noam Chomsky: Hamas cannot recognize Israel any more than Kadima can recognize Palestine, or than the Democratic Party in the US can recognize England. One could ask whether a government led by Hamas should recognize Israel, or whether a government led by Kadima or the Democratic Party should recognize Palestine. So far they have all refused to do so, though Hamas has at least called for a two-state settlement in accord with the long-standing international consensus, while Kadima and the Democratic Party refuse to go that far, keeping to the rejectionist stance that the US and Israel have maintained for over 30 years in international isolation. As for words, when Prime Minister Olmert declares to a joint session of the US Congress that he believes "in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land," to rousing applause, he is presumably referring not only to Palestine from the Jordan to the sea, but also to the other side of the Jordan river, the historic claim of the Likud Party that was his political home, a claim never formally abandoned, to my knowledge. On Hamas, I think it should abandon those provisions of its charter, and should move from acceptance of a two-state settlement to mutual recognition, though we must bear in mind that its positions are more forthcoming than those of the US and Israel.

    ...I wrote decades ago that those who call themselves "supporters of Israel" are in reality supporters of its moral degeneration and probable ultimate destruction. I have also believed for many years that Israel's very clear choice of expansion over security, ever since it turned down Sadat's offer of a full peace treaty in 1971, may well lead to that consequence.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    As for whether Pearl Jam should play in Israel, I think the following point should be considered:

    http://dailyfreepress.com/2010/03/02/ch ... id-debate/

    Chomsky criticized U.S. foreign policy toward Israel but stressed it could also use its power abroad to lessen the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    “The world works like the mafia,” he said. “There is the Don, or us [the United States], and when the Don says not do something, you don’t do it.”

    If Israel is to change its stance toward a Palestinian state, he said, the United States must ask for it.

    “If any meaningful change takes place, it’s going to have to begin here,” he said.

    Some students in the audience said they believed Chomsky’s cause is a good one.

    “As professor Chomsky said, the only way for any meaningful change to come around must start by U.S. citizens who care about Palestinians pressuring a change in foreign policy,” said CAS graduate student Lael Adams.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • JK18472JK18472 Posts: 153
    So,,,,, I take it that's a no.
  • I'd say no. But if they do I will not be pissed enough to quit my membership, haha.

    I still do not understand how the U.S is such a good ally with Israel. I think its because they are our strongest allies over there, but still, it's a shame we support them and give them so much.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • JK18472JK18472 Posts: 153
    I think if you look, you would be surprised at how much Israel gives us. Just to name a few,,,cell phones, USB memory sticks, instant messaging, technology for the electric car, and that little robot that was sent in to capture the Boston bomber. But that's just the ones off the top if my head. The list is very large. If you ate interested look it up.

    I noticed a lot of quotes from people and their ideas. Maybe look at some laws of the land instead of a person opinion or outlook. Check out how many laws Lebanon has against Palestinians. That is apartheid. Almost 50 laws on the books detailing what a Palestinian can't do in their country.

    But this shouldn't be about Israeli politics. There so many fans in that country that want to see the band ,young kids. Let it be about the music. The kids are alright, I love the band I love seeing them play , why would anyone want to take that experience away from someone else. I sure wouldn't want someone to take it away from me especially over something I have no control over.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JK18472 wrote:
    But this shouldn't be about Israeli politics. There so many fans in that country that want to see the band ,young kids. Let it be about the music. The kids are alright, I love the band I love seeing them play , why would anyone want to take that experience away from someone else. I sure wouldn't want someone to take it away from me especially over something I have no control over.

    You don't think Israeli citizens have any control over the shit that goes down in their country? That's funny, because according to this person:
    pjambama wrote:
    Israel is a model of democracy, inclusion and pluralism
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • besides legal democratic elections, how does any citizen have any control over what their government does?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    besides legal democratic elections, how does any citizen have any control over what their government does?

    Maybe you should ask the people of Romania, Egypt, Libya, Tripoli, and Turkey?
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
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