Should Pearl Jam Play in Israel?

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited December 2013 in A Moving Train
Guess where I stand on this one? ;)

Personally, If they did, then I'd cancel my membership and you'd never hear from me again (And, yeah, I know how happy that would make some of you). I don't think this band has any business playing in a racist, Apartheid state.

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Discuss...
"It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

"Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

"Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
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Comments

  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 2,844
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Guess where I stand on this one? ;)


    Discuss...

    The only way I'd approve is if they said some stuff to bring attention to it and get booed like they did in Nassau.

    that would be cool
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Smellyman wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Guess where I stand on this one? ;)


    Discuss...

    The only way I'd approve is if they said some stuff to bring attention to it and get booed like they did in Nassau.

    that would be cool

    You think they'd have played in Apartheid South Africa? I doubt it.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    If Israel ended it's 45 year illegal occupation and land grab, then I wouldn't have a problem with them playing there.

    As for Perry Farrell trying to get Pearl Jam to play there this year - that all fell through due to a number of conscientious objectors - he is clearly a fucking asshole. (And I actually used to love Jane's Addiction).

    Read on...

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ben ... alestinian

    '...Farrell previously raised money for Israeli army soldiers during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” massacre of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

    The Lollapalooza music festival — held annually in Chicago — is run by the company of noted Hollywood agent and brother of Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel. It will also be held next year in an Israeli park built over the ruins of the Palestinian village of Jarisha whose residents were forced to flee their homes under attack by Zionist militias in 1948.

    ...In 2009 as Israel bombed the Gaza Strip, Farrell hosted a fundraiser with Alan Dershowitz for “victims of terror.” The event “Stand with Israel at Ground Zero” was by invitation only and organized by YJP International.

    At the event, this video shows, Farrell asked participants to dig deep into their pockets saying that “All the money and the proceeds is going to be going to victims of terror and especially the soldiers that for the past few weeks have been risking their lives, have been putting their lives on the line for us so that we can remain in Israel.”

    As Farrell spoke, on 21 January 2009, Israel was just completing its three-week long assault on the Gaza Strip which killed more than 1,400 Palestinians, the vast majority civilians, including more than 350 children. In an apparent reference to this assault, Farrell said “I think we made our point in southern Israel.”
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,842
    no.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • VivaPalestinaVivaPalestina Posts: 225
    Absolutely not. And I don't think they will.

    Israel is an apartheid state. There are separate rules and laws for israelis and Palestinians. There are separate roads for israelis and Palestinians. Palestinians are still to this day being robbed of their land and that land is made to be exclusively for israelis...(see your/Byrnzie's settlement thread, which I have been wanting to post on, but I don't know where to start). There is an Apartheid wall that has encroached upon Palestinian land, this wall has split people from their families, from their farmland, from all means of livelihood. This wall has prevented Palestinians from emergency care, and has caused hardship and death.

    Given a hypothetical, let's say that pearl jam did decide to make the uncharateristic choice and play tel aviv or another spot within israel. How would it be for Pearl Jam fans living in the West Bank or Gaza to get to said concert. It would be impossible. There are people who have applied for travel permits for health related emergencies, have been been either accepted or denied permits after loopholes and paperwork, but no matter because once at the wall they have been turned away. Travel within the West Bank is arduous. There are checkpoints and long waits and searches, etc. And then after you offer your papers, the arbitrary nod or shake of the head of the 12 year old Zionist shit with a gun and a heartless stare gets to decide if you get to move on the next town or not.

    The modus operandi of all the occupation forces is to make life, work, school, play, inculding a hypothetical pearl jam concert impossible. For the bands that have put aside/looked over the occcupation and oppression of a nation of people and play israel, shame on them. How daft and callous can they be.
  • foodboyfoodboy Posts: 806
    yes please give up your membership. i think you are racist. yes lets just remove all borders and boundries and maybe in your naive way of socialist thinking it will all work out just the way you think. but unfortunately it will not. will you be coming to the aid of israelis as you speak now as their enemies try to wipe them off the face of the earth. i think not. israel would like nothing more than to have peace. you don't live in their shoes and you probably think their were no concentration camps either. it is a very very complex issue. how can you expect your enemies of a few thousand years to all of a sudden just say let bygones be bygones.these problems were not started with land grabs.
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,199
    Yes, they should absolutely play in Israel. Aside from obviously giving their fans a chance to see them live, it's a chance to make a meaningful statement, by, for example, doing what Roger Waters did when he played in Israel a few years back and holding the concert in a joint Jewish-Arab community devoted to peace and coexistence.
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,199
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If Israel ended it's 45 year illegal occupation and land grab, then I wouldn't have a problem with them playing there.

    As for Perry Farrell trying to get Pearl Jam to play there this year - that all fell through due to a number of conscientious objectors - he is clearly a fucking asshole. (And I actually used to love Jane's Addiction).

    Read on...

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ben ... alestinian

    '...Farrell previously raised money for Israeli army soldiers during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” massacre of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

    The Lollapalooza music festival — held annually in Chicago — is run by the company of noted Hollywood agent and brother of Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel. It will also be held next year in an Israeli park built over the ruins of the Palestinian village of Jarisha whose residents were forced to flee their homes under attack by Zionist militias in 1948.

    This is what I love so much about your contributions. You just can't seem to ever be able to decide whether your objections are to the occupation, or just to Israel in general. And that is why I, for one, have trouble taking you at your word when you claim that your only objection is to the occupation alone.
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,199
    Absolutely not. And I don't think they will.

    Israel is an apartheid state.
    No, it's not. Certain aspects of the occupation, horrific entirely in its own right, bear some resemblance to apartheid, but to say that Israel is an "apartheid state" is just demonstrably untrue. To take just one example, Palestinian citizens of Israel (comprising about 20% of the population) vote freely in Israeli elections, and are duly represented in the Israeli parlaiment, which would be an impossibility if Israel were actually an apartheid state. Calling Israel an apartheid state is nothing more than a rhetorical attempt to tar Israel by association, regardless of the fact that the comparison to apartheid is a false one.
    There are separate rules and laws for israelis and Palestinians. There are separate roads for israelis and Palestinians.
    The salient distinction is not between Palestinians and Israelis, but rather between Israeli citizens (including Palestinian Israelis) and the non-citizen Palestinians living under the occupation. The conflict is ultimately about competing nationalisms, not racism, as the apartheid comparison would lead one to believe.
    There is an Apartheid wall that has encroached upon Palestinian land, this wall has split people from their families, from their farmland, from all means of livelihood. This wall has prevented Palestinians from emergency care, and has caused hardship and death.
    What does that even mean, that there is "an apartheid wall"? There is a barrier, in some places a wall, in others a fence, that was erected as a security measure to prevent infiltration into Israel of suicide bombers and other terrorists. It was extremely effective in this regard. Yes, the barrier has caused many hardships, but it is not a permanent structure, and will presumably be altered to conform to the boundaries set in any eventual peace deal. Moreover, the route of the barrier has already repeatedly been altered by order of the Israeli Supreme Court in response to petitions brought by affected Palestinian communities where the Court found that the hardships imposed were out of proportion to the security needs presumptively being met.
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    foodboy wrote:
    yes please give up your membership. i think you are racist. yes lets just remove all borders and boundries and maybe in your naive way of socialist thinking it will all work out just the way you think. but unfortunately it will not. will you be coming to the aid of israelis as you speak now as their enemies try to wipe them off the face of the earth. i think not. israel would like nothing more than to have peace. you don't live in their shoes and you probably think their were no concentration camps either. it is a very very complex issue. how can you expect your enemies of a few thousand years to all of a sudden just say let bygones be bygones.these problems were not started with land grabs.

    Firstly, you think I'm racist because I oppose the Illegal occupation - an occupation opposed by the entire World, excluding Israel and the U.S?
    Do you support the occupation? If so, then it's you are the racist.

    Secondly, look at this map and tell me how the Palestinians have tried wiping Israel off the face of the Earth?

    palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2010.jpg

    You're simply trying to turn reality on it's head. You wouldn't be a fan of Aice in Wonderland would you?

    Lastly, the Jews and Arabs in historical Palestine lived in peace together for over a thousand years before the Zionists moved in and began ethnically cleansing the place.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    This is what I love so much about your contributions. You just can't seem to ever be able to decide whether your objections are to the occupation, or just to Israel in general. And that is why I, for one, have trouble taking you at your word when you claim that your only objection is to the occupation alone.


    So if a Neo-Nazi band decided to play a concert within the geographic area of the Warsaw ghetto, you wouldn't object?
    I mean, you clearly think it perfectly appropriate for supporters of the IDF, and vocal supporters of the Gaza massacre of 2008-2009, to play a concert on an area that was ethnically cleansed of Palestinians in 1948.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    What does that even mean, that there is "an apartheid wall"? There is a barrier, in some places a wall, in others a fence, that was erected as a security measure to prevent infiltration into Israel of suicide bombers and other terrorists.

    A wall deemed illegal by the International court of justice, and which has served to annex more Palestinian territory, in flagrant breach of international law.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    foodboy wrote:
    Israel would like nothing more than to have peace.

    foodboy wrote:
    you don't live in their shoes and you probably think their were no concentration camps either.

    foodboy wrote:
    It is a very very complex issue.


    All three textbook bullshit defences employed by Israel's apologists. :lol: Seriously, it's so pathetic, it's funny.

    1. Israel wants peace, whilst continuing to steal more land and build more racist, Jewish-only settlements in contravention of international law and the will of the whole of the international community - excluding the U.S.

    2. Anyone who critices Israel's 45 year ethnic cleansing campaign is an anti-Semitic Nazi.

    3. It is a very very complex issue. (Therefore, it's best to just ignore it, and raise no objections. After all, both sides are as bad as each other, and it's impossible for any mere mortal to untangle the intricate web of complexity that this conflict embodies).
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,312
    To my knowledge, no member of Pearl Jam has ever spoken out about Israel, however we know that they (particularly Eddie) have befriended Howard Zinn, spoken well of Noam Chomsky, and supported Ralph Nader for President... and we know where they have all stood on Israel.

    I think there is little to no chance that they will ever play in Israel... the politics of it are too divisive... I think they are smart enough to stay clear of it all.
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,312
    An interview where Eddie speaks about Zinn, Chomsky and Nader: http://www.avclub.com/articles/eddie-ve ... jam,13789/
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,312
    http://www.jewishjournal.com/bloggish/i ... _20100311/

    Zinn answers questions about Israel itself, which he calls, in retrospect, a mistake.

    How did you react to Israel’s creation in 1948?
    I didn’t know a lot about it, but I remember speaking at some gathering to celebrate its founding. I wasn’t a Zionist. I just vaguely knew that a Jewish state was being created and that seemed like a good thing. I had no idea that the Jews were coming into an area occupied by Palestinians.

    Were you critical of Israel before 1967?
    Before 1967 Israel did not loom large in my consciousness. I was aware that there was a war between Israel and the Arab states in 1956, but it really wasn’t until 1967 and the taking of the occupied territories that I realized this was a serious problem. I remember reading I.F. Stone, who was very concerned with Israel.

    How do you discuss Israel and Palestine with Jews who might be resistant to claims that Israel bears some responsibility for the conflict?
    As always in very complicated issues where emotions come to the fore quickly, I try to first acknowledge the other party’s feelings. In the case of Israel I try to say, yes, I understand your sympathy for a Jewish state, and I understand that you become angry when rockets fall [in Sderot] or when a suicide bomber takes needless life. But that has to be seen in proportion. I try to appeal to the experience of Jews, the experience of the Holocaust, by saying, if it’s never again, it’s not just never again for Jews, it’s never again for anybody. I also try to present facts that are hard to put aside. Rockets from Gaza killed three Israelis; Israelis retaliated with an enormous bombardment that killed 1,000 people. You can’t simply write that off or say, well, they’re morally equivalent or it was bad on both sides. Or the Lebanese send rockets into Israel, killing a number of people, and the Israelis invade Lebanon in 1982 and there are 14,000 civilian casualties. These are horrors inflicted by a Jewish state. As a Jew I feel ashamed when I read these things…I [also] try to appeal to what I think are the best legacies of the Jewish people—people like Albert Einstein and Martin Buber, who cannot be simply written off, because they’re Jewish heroes. And these are people who were critical of Israel and sympathetic to Palestinians.

    Do you think that Zionism was a mistake?
    I think the Jewish State was a mistake, yes. Obviously, it’s too late to go back. It was a mistake to drive the Indians off the American continent, but it’s too late to give it back. At the time, I thought creating Israel was a good thing, but in retrospect, it was probably the worst thing that the Jews could have done. What they did was join the nationalistic frenzy, they became privy to all of the evils that nationalism creates and became very much like the United States—very aggressive, violent and bigoted. When Jews were without a state they were internationalists and they contributed to whatever culture they were part of and produced great things. Jews were known as kindly, talented people. Now, I think, Israel is contributing to anti-Semitism. So I think it was a big mistake.

    What’s interesting is that for all his radical and debatable analysis—ignoring a hundred years of PRE-war Zionism and settlement, for instance—Zinn arrives at a conclusion that Netanyahu and most mainstream Zionists and Palestinians putatively share—a two state solution.

    What sort of solution do you want to see when it comes to the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
    Ideally, there should be a secular state in which Arabs and Jews live together as equals. There are countries around the world where different ethnic groups live side by side. But that is very difficult and therefore the two-state solution seems like the most practical thing, especially since both Jews and Palestinians seem to favor it. It’s odd: All these people on both sides want a two-state solution, but it can’t come into being. The basic problem is the fanaticism of people like Benjamin Netanyahu and people who don’t want to give up the occupied territories. The settlements also pose a real problem. But it’s a problem that’s solvable. It was solved in the agreement with Egypt [when the settlers were removed from Sinai]. This time it’s more serious, but there are ways in which settlers can be compensated or assured of their rights in a Palestinian state as a quid pro quo for the rights of Arabs in the Jewish state.
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,312
    I personally don't care if they play in Israel. After all, they play in fucking America.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,842
    yosi wrote:
    Yes, they should absolutely play in Israel. Aside from obviously giving their fans a chance to see them live, it's a chance to make a meaningful statement, by, for example, doing what Roger Waters did when he played in Israel a few years back and holding the concert in a joint Jewish-Arab community devoted to peace and coexistence.


    if they play in gaza then perhaps I would support them.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    maybe some of you forgot the reason they still do this.......MONEY !
    politics and rock n roll.... :nono: these guy's are in a band not the white house,not the pagen god's you've made them out to be, let them play for the fans where ever they are..isreal or America they have a great talent to share and I'm sure people in Israel would like to see a PJ show as much as the rest of us.

    "check your political opinion in at the door and enjoy the show"


    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,842
    Godfather. wrote:
    maybe some of you forgot the reason they still do this.......MONEY !
    politics and rock n roll.... :nono: these guy's are in a band not the white house,not the pagen god's you've made them out to be, let them play for the fans where ever they are..isreal or America they have a great talent to share and I'm sure people in Israel would like to see a PJ show as much as the rest of us.

    "check your political opinion in at the door and enjoy the show"


    Godfather.

    then perhaps the people of Israel might choose to apply pressure to their oppressive govt so that everyone who lives within the so called borders of 'israel' can equally enjoy a concert by a western rock band. having said that pearl jam are their own people and they can choose to play wherever they choose to do so.. however that doesn't mean that i as a pearl jam fan have to support their decision.. sure play israel but don't expect me to be at you next australian concert... and THAT is my choice.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Godfather. wrote:
    maybe some of you forgot the reason they still do this.......MONEY !
    politics and rock n roll.... :nono: these guy's are in a band not the white house,not the pagen god's you've made them out to be, let them play for the fans where ever they are..isreal or America they have a great talent to share and I'm sure people in Israel would like to see a PJ show as much as the rest of us.

    "check your political opinion in at the door and enjoy the show"


    Godfather.

    then perhaps the people of Israel might choose to apply pressure to their oppressive govt so that everyone who lives within the so called borders of 'israel' can equally enjoy a concert by a western rock band. having said that pearl jam are their own people and they can choose to play wherever they choose to do so.. however that doesn't mean that i as a pearl jam fan have to support their decision.. sure play israel but don't expect me to be at you next australian concert... and THAT is my choice.


    cool. ;)

    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Godfather. wrote:
    maybe some of you forgot the reason they still do this.......MONEY !
    politics and rock n roll.... :nono: these guy's are in a band not the white house,not the pagen god's you've made them out to be, let them play for the fans where ever they are..isreal or America they have a great talent to share and I'm sure people in Israel would like to see a PJ show as much as the rest of us.

    "check your political opinion in at the door and enjoy the show"


    Godfather.

    You play in a country with a sensitive political situation then there's an element of endorsement involved. When a large number of artists begin boycotting a country because of it's bad human rights record e.t.c, then it sends a powerful message.
    One of the strongest factors in finally toppling South African Apartheid was the extent of boycotts from international performers. You can effectively isolate a country in that way and bring about change.

    Also, it's interesting that the only countries that supported the racist Apartheid regime in South Africa right up to the end were the U.S and Israel.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 16,604
    It all depends if ORACLE has their next super conference in Israel.

    ;)
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,842
    Jason P wrote:
    It all depends if ORACLE has their next super conference in Israel.

    ;)

    a corporation AND an oppressive govt.. that sounds like double evil to me. ;) 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jason P wrote:
    It all depends if ORACLE has their next super conference in Israel.

    ;)

    Ouch!
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    They barely play the States, what makes one think they'd even think of playing in Israel?
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,515
    I don't see why it matters...
    They play benefits for Murders...
    Hell, they even let a murder co-write lyrics to one of their songs...
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,842
    Blockhead wrote:
    I don't see why it matters...
    They play benefits for Murders...
    Hell, they even let a murder co-write lyrics to one of their songs...

    please elaborate.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    Godfather. wrote:
    maybe some of you forgot the reason they still do this.......MONEY !
    politics and rock n roll.... :nono: these guy's are in a band not the white house,not the pagen god's you've made them out to be, let them play for the fans where ever they are..isreal or America they have a great talent to share and I'm sure people in Israel would like to see a PJ show as much as the rest of us.

    "check your political opinion in at the door and enjoy the show"


    Godfather.

    They may play for money, but the band is really about politics and social justice. If they played Israel, it would mean they support what's going on there, because they are all about awareness. But that won't happen because they barely tour to begin with.
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,020
    Blockhead wrote:
    I don't see why it matters...
    They play benefits for Murders...
    Hell, they even let a murder co-write lyrics to one of their songs...

    please elaborate.

    or don't. :roll:
    Peace, Love.


    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
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