SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States)

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  • Posts: 41,977
    Came across this when trying to find data back to 1960. May have to look at census data. Will look further as time allows.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/12/10-facts-about-todays-college-graduates/
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,651
    mrussel1 said:
    I don't know that I agree with your last statement.  If you look at college degree attainment rates in the US, they just continue to rise.  While this data doesn't go back to when you were in school, one would presume it was lower.  I doubt the curve is U-shaped.  So while I agree it's too expensive, I think in the past it was much more an elitist game. 



    I can be good to be wrong.  I stand corrected.  And good!  (But I still think college should be more affordable.)

    I'd also love to see trade schools given a boost.  College isn't for every one and I don't know about other places, but in our area, good skilled trades people- carpenters, plumbers, electrician, general handyman and handywoman (now why is that not a word?!), etc are in great shortage.  We often have a hard time getting help doing the kind of work I am no longer capable of doing.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • Posts: 9,824
    mickeyrat said:

    The whole wrong identity is weird. But it was filed 7 years ago and no one contacting him until now? That is just as weird.

    I don’t agree with other comments I’ve seen that relate this to open discrimination, such as restaurants refusing service to gay couples.

    To me there’s a difference. One is creating something, the other is selling what already exists. I wouldn’t ask a Jewish Bakery to make me an Easter cake, but I’d expect them to sell me whatever dessert they already have for sale.
    Might be bad business, but I think it should be their choice what they create.
    I wouldn’t expect an immigrant-run shop to print signs for me that are anti-illegal immigration for a protest. They should be allowed to deny creating that for me. I don’t see the difference.
  • Posts: 1,855
    mace1229 said:

    The whole wrong identity is weird. But it was filed 7 years ago and no one contacting him until now? That is just as weird.

    I don’t agree with other comments I’ve seen that relate this to open discrimination, such as restaurants refusing service to gay couples.

    To me there’s a difference. One is creating something, the other is selling what already exists. I wouldn’t ask a Jewish Bakery to make me an Easter cake, but I’d expect them to sell me whatever dessert they already have for sale.
    Might be bad business, but I think it should be their choice what they create.
    I wouldn’t expect an immigrant-run shop to print signs for me that are anti-illegal immigration for a protest. They should be allowed to deny creating that for me. I don’t see the difference.
    Well everyone is entitled to feel how they feel.  I get what you’re saying.  I just think it will segregate us further.  And I do mean segregate.  If I’m black I’m moving into a neighborhood close to black businesses because why bother if my skin color allows you not to serve me.  That is segregation. 
  • Posts: 44,296
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  • Posts: 1,855
    mickeyrat said:
    Used to be slightly ok with JR. No longer.  This is some scary shit going on.  
  • Posts: 9,824
    Well everyone is entitled to feel how they feel.  I get what you’re saying.  I just think it will segregate us further.  And I do mean segregate.  If I’m black I’m moving into a neighborhood close to black businesses because why bother if my skin color allows you not to serve me.  That is segregation. 
    I disagree.
    For one, I think that right should only be reserved for those creating or making something unique. Like a website. I don’t think that is very common. I can’t remember the last time I had a business create something for me. Even my wedding I’m pretty sure we just got a standard cake and stock invitations, unless you count adding our name and date to it. And a refusal should require more than just race. How you enforce that part, or if you can, I don’t know.
    And second, I know racism still exist, but I truly believe the majority of people are good. I may not always like their politics or how they think government should spend money, but I don’t think they are bad. If a business is known for openly refusing service based on race or other criteria, I think it would most often hurt them more than it helps. But if you’re a Jewish Bakery who refused to write “Jesus Lives” on a cake for Easter, I think most people would understand.
  • Posts: 44,296
    mace1229 said:
    I disagree.
    For one, I think that right should only be reserved for those creating or making something unique. Like a website. I don’t think that is very common. I can’t remember the last time I had a business create something for me. Even my wedding I’m pretty sure we just got a standard cake and stock invitations, unless you count adding our name and date to it. And a refusal should require more than just race. How you enforce that part, or if you can, I don’t know.
    And second, I know racism still exist, but I truly believe the majority of people are good. I may not always like their politics or how they think government should spend money, but I don’t think they are bad. If a business is known for openly refusing service based on race or other criteria, I think it would most often hurt them more than it helps. But if you’re a Jewish Bakery who refused to write “Jesus Lives” on a cake for Easter, I think most people would understand.

    this website case wasnt real. plaintiff made it up. admits it.
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Posts: 1,855
    mickeyrat said:

    this website case wasnt real. plaintiff made it up. admits it.
    There goes most people are good.  Almost 1\2 the country voted for trump. Those people are not good IMO. 
  • Posts: 31,531
    Blame democrats! They should of voted against everyone one of Trumpolinni choices every Democrat should of voted against them! And here we are Trumpolinni is being hailed like a god because of his nominee’s no matter how bad he’s presidency was getting those judges on the court was a giant win! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Posts: 1,855
    mickeyrat said:

    this website case wasnt real. plaintiff made it up. admits it.
    So what happens now?  The SC just keeps making decisions on cases that are fake?  And JR is worried about his integrity.  I guess he should be.  
  • Posts: 41,977
    Can a business post a “Help Wanted, Conservatives/Republicans/MAGATS Need Not Apply” sign? Free speech, right?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Posts: 31,531
    Can a business post a “Help Wanted, Conservatives/Republicans/MAGATS Need Not Apply” sign? Free speech, right?
    The gay community should just protest in front of her store front every day make her life miserable! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Posts: 30,879
    edited July 2023
    mace1229 said:
    I disagree.
    For one, I think that right should only be reserved for those creating or making something unique. Like a website. I don’t think that is very common. I can’t remember the last time I had a business create something for me. Even my wedding I’m pretty sure we just got a standard cake and stock invitations, unless you count adding our name and date to it. And a refusal should require more than just race. How you enforce that part, or if you can, I don’t know.
    And second, I know racism still exist, but I truly believe the majority of people are good. I may not always like their politics or how they think government should spend money, but I don’t think they are bad. If a business is known for openly refusing service based on race or other criteria, I think it would most often hurt them more than it helps. But if you’re a Jewish Bakery who refused to write “Jesus Lives” on a cake for Easter, I think most people would understand.
    I get what you're saying from a 'logic' standpoint, but it doesn't really make sense legally.  Commerce is commerce and you're drawing an artificial distinction.  What if the cake is already made and asks to put Mason and Matt on it?  Is that two minutes of work 'creating'?  Is it any more intensive than ringing them up on the sale?  I just dont' know how you could legislate that.  

    I get both sides.  Just like the argument that you should not have to make a KKK cake for the local Grand Wizard. But a Grand Wizard is not a protected class. What's interesting about this case is the Supreme Court decided that the plaintiffs First Amendment rights superseded the Colorado state law that made sexual orientation a protected class.  

    I do hope the Court draws a distinction between this case and the cases that will soon be in front of them that outlaw public drag shows and such.  To me, that's a clear violation of the Equal Protection Clause, as the government is deciding that a type of person cannot engage in free speech.  So if anything, this case SHOULD be used as a precedent to invalidate those laws.  

  • Posts: 41,977
    mrussel1 said:
    You're such an odd poster.  All of you right wingers are with the juvenile nicknames. 

    At the end of the day, I think this is a good thing, but likely not for the reasons you do.  In my opinion, student loan forgiveness is actually a regressive policy, not progressive.  College graduates make significantly more over their lifetime than non-college grads (e.g. Trump supporters).  So you have a situation where the gov't is waiving debt on people who are most likely to be middle to upper middle to wealthy.  That's regressive in my book.  The core issue is the rising cost of tuition and for students to be wiser in what they borrow and where they choose to go to school.  Waiving loans does not accomplish that.

    Because I'm at the age where my kids are in school, and my friends' children are going to school, I'm seeing firsthand the poor choices.  I see kids going to private schools or out of state publics when I know they can't afford 50-70k per year in costs.  It makes no sense.  I told my kids they are going in state, public unless they get scholarships.  There is no reason not to do so.  And if costs are even tighter, junior college to state university is the way to go.  I had to do that myself.  
    Hey now!
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  • Posts: 12,750
    “I have a sincere religious belief that Judges should not take lavish gifts and money from rich people trying to influence the court John Roberts please take my case”
  • Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    brianlux said:

    I can be good to be wrong.  I stand corrected.  And good!  (But I still think college should be more affordable.)

    I'd also love to see trade schools given a boost.  College isn't for every one and I don't know about other places, but in our area, good skilled trades people- carpenters, plumbers, electrician, general handyman and handywoman (now why is that not a word?!), etc are in great shortage.  We often have a hard time getting help doing the kind of work I am no longer capable of doing.

    Brian, @mrussel1 makes some good points here. The system is messed up, and while Biden's plan was popular I don't know that it was the best way to fix things.

    I think that people who are not in the thick of things and really trying to figure out how much college is going to cost for their child don't understand the disconnect between sticker price and actual price. And it really varies person to person, school to school. The same student can get six wildly different aid offers from six schools. Affordability is largely disconnected from whatever the cost of tuition supposedly is, depending a lot on the size of the school's endowment. 

    I tend to believe that part of the reason for skyrocketing college costs is the ready availability of loans -- people aren't thinking about the cost in the present and it remains an abstract concept for them, so they borrow as much as they can -- kind of like an ex of mine who assumed that as long as cash was disbursed from the ATM when he inserted his card, he had plenty of money (ignoring his account's overdraft protection feature).

    The LA Times ran a story yesterday about students "crushed" by this SCOTUS decision. One opted to go to Southern Oregon University  borrowing $30K per year and was upset because she would have to move back home, go to CC etc. This is insane. California's public university system is outstanding; she could spend two years at CC and transfer to a CSU school to complete her degree and have a "real college experience," and get a better education for much less money! Another student profiled wanted to use his cash to buy a camera and lights, because he's a "TikToker."

    I can't comprehend these choices. I think one part of the solution would be better education of the students and their parents: perhaps, midway through eleventh grade, everyone gets a crash course in understanding how much college really costs for them, how to weigh the value of a particular school. Make it a mandatory class for college-prep track kids and their families.

    But those loans: I am old, but back in the 80s the maximum amount I could borrow -- the total over four years -- was $10,000 or $12,500. That's it. Big loans and big debt were reserved for people going to law school or medical school, on the assumption that they would have the future income to repay the loans. When I read about people borrowing $30 - 40K/ year to go be a social worker, I wonder both about their ability to understand their future debt load and about the role those higher loan limits play in inflating the cost of college. It seems to me that the cost of college would not outstrip inflation if people were not able and willing to come up with the money, through loans or out of pocket, to cover those rising costs. 
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • Posts: 1,855

    Brian, @mrussel1 makes some good points here. The system is messed up, and while Biden's plan was popular I don't know that it was the best way to fix things.

    I think that people who are not in the thick of things and really trying to figure out how much college is going to cost for their child don't understand the disconnect between sticker price and actual price. And it really varies person to person, school to school. The same student can get six wildly different aid offers from six schools. Affordability is largely disconnected from whatever the cost of tuition supposedly is, depending a lot on the size of the school's endowment. 

    I tend to believe that part of the reason for skyrocketing college costs is the ready availability of loans -- people aren't thinking about the cost in the present and it remains an abstract concept for them, so they borrow as much as they can -- kind of like an ex of mine who assumed that as long as cash was disbursed from the ATM when he inserted his card, he had plenty of money (ignoring his account's overdraft protection feature).

    The LA Times ran a story yesterday about students "crushed" by this SCOTUS decision. One opted to go to Southern Oregon University  borrowing $30K per year and was upset because she would have to move back home, go to CC etc. This is insane. California's public university system is outstanding; she could spend two years at CC and transfer to a CSU school to complete her degree and have a "real college experience," and get a better education for much less money! Another student profiled wanted to use his cash to buy a camera and lights, because he's a "TikToker."

    I can't comprehend these choices. I think one part of the solution would be better education of the students and their parents: perhaps, midway through eleventh grade, everyone gets a crash course in understanding how much college really costs for them, how to weigh the value of a particular school. Make it a mandatory class for college-prep track kids and their families.

    But those loans: I am old, but back in the 80s the maximum amount I could borrow -- the total over four years -- was $10,000 or $12,500. That's it. Big loans and big debt were reserved for people going to law school or medical school, on the assumption that they would have the future income to repay the loans. When I read about people borrowing $30 - 40K/ year to go be a social worker, I wonder both about their ability to understand their future debt load and about the role those higher loan limits play in inflating the cost of college. It seems to me that the cost of college would not outstrip inflation if people were not able and willing to come up with the money, through loans or out of pocket, to cover those rising costs. 
    Great post.  I was college age in the 80’s as well.  Bolded is crazy that kids weren’t (and some still may not be) taught those repercussions at high school age. 
  • St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,000
    the court gets once decision right, then tanks the next 4 or 5. that tracks with this fucking court.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Posts: 44,296
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14

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