Seems like the obvious decision and one that didn't really need the Supreme Court ruling, which is pretty pointless and provides little substance.
Is this where everything Trump ever does again, if elected, will be preemptively labeled as official? Nice the court officially gave every future president an out.
I agree, this is all pretty much what was expected and common sense. While Trump will try to take a victory lap, let's remember that he said he had "absolute immunity". He doesn't.
it also could have been taken up and ruled on from the Dec. Smith request.....
even still, it did not need to take 2 1/2 to 3 months to come to what seems already understood.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Seems like the obvious decision and one that didn't really need the Supreme Court ruling, which is pretty pointless and provides little substance.
Is this where everything Trump ever does again, if elected, will be preemptively labeled as official? Nice the court officially gave every future president an out.
I agree, this is all pretty much what was expected and common sense. While Trump will try to take a victory lap, let's remember that he said he had "absolute immunity". He doesn't.
it also could have been taken up and ruled on from the Dec. Smith request.....
even still, it did not need to take 2 1/2 to 3 months to come to what seems already understood.
I think that's just the nature of the SCOTUS process. This was a full panel so they do all oral arguments and then release the opinions together, for all cases in session.
I don't think the arguments before the court ever really addressed the merits is the case, and whether the specific acts were official or not. I read the summary that day and don't recall and deep dive into the case itself. So I'm not they have even made a ruling on that.
Seems like the obvious decision and one that didn't really need the Supreme Court ruling, which is pretty pointless and provides little substance.
Is this where everything Trump ever does again, if elected, will be preemptively labeled as official? Nice the court officially gave every future president an out.
I agree, this is all pretty much what was expected and common sense. While Trump will try to take a victory lap, let's remember that he said he had "absolute immunity". He doesn't.
it also could have been taken up and ruled on from the Dec. Smith request.....
even still, it did not need to take 2 1/2 to 3 months to come to what seems already understood.
I think that's just the nature of the SCOTUS process. This was a full panel so they do all oral arguments and then release the opinions together, for all cases in session.
I don't think the arguments before the court ever really addressed the merits is the case, and whether the specific acts were official or not. I read the summary that day and don't recall and deep dive into the case itself. So I'm not they have even made a ruling on that.
it didnt. the apoeal asked for it. they chose to take up a question that wasnt asked. Smith's motion did ask that very question as I recall.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Reading through the majority opinion, the path to prosecution seems to be very much open as long as they narrow the scope. The key to me lies in Trump's requests to Pence to interfere in certification of the elections. In that scenario, Pence is acting as President of the Senate and therefore not involved in any official act for the office of the President and this Trump is interfering with Congress. Of course, they threw a caveat in even that assessment and left it open enough for Trump to slip by.
I'm not optimistic anything happens and if Trump is re-elected, none of it matters based on that little tidbit Robert's dropped at the end about not prosecuting a sitting president.
The Thomas concur is an interesting segueway in to whether special counsel is even a legally appointed office. I see his argument, but I think it's a distraction with little relevance here.
As for Barrett, I think she is the one who gets it right in her partial dissent from the majority. The President has some protections for sure, but there should be an ability to analyze conduct to determine if it was a private act and that official conduct does not necessarily mean unequivocal immunity.
So is there anything Biden can get out of this ruling? Or was this just to help Trump evade further prosecution?
I don't think it's a bad ruling. The argument now becomes, was an act official or on the behalf themselves as a citizen or candidate.
What is lost in this commentary is that Trump's team was arguing for any act, the president must be first impeached and convicted. That is not the case.
2. This analysis is unnecessary for allegations involving the President’s
private conduct because the Constitution offers no protection from prosecution of acts taken in a private capacity. Ante, at 15. Sorting private
from official conduct sometimes will be difficult—but not always. Take
the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors.
See, e.g., App. 208. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not
entitled to protection. See post, at 27–28 (SOTOMAYOR, J., dissenting).
The Constitution vests power to appoint Presidential electors in the
States. Art. II, §1, cl. 2; see also Chiafalo v. Washington, 591 U. S. 578,
588–589 (2020). And while Congress has a limited role in that process,
see Art. II, §1, cls. 3–4, the President has none. In short, a President has
no legal authority—and thus no official capacity—to influence how the
States appoint their electors. I see no plausible argument for barring
prosecution of that alleged conduct.
2. This analysis is unnecessary for allegations involving the President’s
private conduct because the Constitution offers no protection from prosecution of acts taken in a private capacity. Ante, at 15. Sorting private
from official conduct sometimes will be difficult—but not always. Take
the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors.
See, e.g., App. 208. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not
entitled to protection. See post, at 27–28 (SOTOMAYOR, J., dissenting).
The Constitution vests power to appoint Presidential electors in the
States. Art. II, §1, cl. 2; see also Chiafalo v. Washington, 591 U. S. 578,
588–589 (2020). And while Congress has a limited role in that process,
see Art. II, §1, cls. 3–4, the President has none. In short, a President has
no legal authority—and thus no official capacity—to influence how the
States appoint their electors. I see no plausible argument for barring
prosecution of that alleged conduct.
edit: correct to concurring in part
A perfectly acceptable concurrence and certainly not some exoneration..
And notice, nothing about the impeachment process which is political, not criminal.
1. Expanding SCOTUS to 13
2. Fire Roberts, Alito, and Thomas for corruption
3. Arrest all insurrectionists in Congress
4. Arrest Trump for insurrection
#SCOTUS
Sotomayor wrote a great dissent. It speaks volumes about the amount of additional power and immunity this court just gave current and future presidents.
Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution,
the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark.
The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the
President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since
the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies
about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes
to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his
own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation. Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214, 246 (1944) (Jackson,
J., dissenting). The President of the United States is the
most powerful person in the country, and possibly the
world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under
the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from
criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.
Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official
power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one
day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as
bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the
majority’s message today.
Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I
pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves
has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the
President is now a king above the law.
Post edited by tbergs on
It's a hopeless situation...
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
He also could officially have any troublesome Supreme Court justices eliminated; I am surprised that that thought didn't occur to them.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
we already knew the prez was immune from official acts. if not, nearly every wartime president should be locked up. GWB, Obama, Trump, etc. They've all committed war crimes, not even domestic. Otherwise every presidency would be bungled up in litigation with the other side trying to put them in jail.
to me this ruling makes sense. as shitty as it is, as I do believe any president who murders civilians of a foreign nation should be prosecuted, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Official acts" is that line.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
All of this is because morons voted for Ralph Nader instead of Gore and people who thought Hillary was worse than Trump. There’s your 5 corrupt judges right there.
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
we already knew the prez was immune from official acts. if not, nearly every wartime president should be locked up. GWB, Obama, Trump, etc. They've all committed war crimes, not even domestic. Otherwise every presidency would be bungled up in litigation with the other side trying to put them in jail.
to me this ruling makes sense. as shitty as it is, as I do believe any president who murders civilians of a foreign nation should be prosecuted, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Official acts" is that line.
My (limited) understanding is that "presumption" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the opinion. So if a POTUS were do take an action, say, order the military to imprison all members of Congress, and say that this was an official order from him as POTUS, the courts, at some indeterminate future point, would have to figure out if the presumption of official-ness was valid. Sort of a "shoot first, ask for forgiveness later" approach.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
we already knew the prez was immune from official acts. if not, nearly every wartime president should be locked up. GWB, Obama, Trump, etc. They've all committed war crimes, not even domestic. Otherwise every presidency would be bungled up in litigation with the other side trying to put them in jail.
to me this ruling makes sense. as shitty as it is, as I do believe any president who murders civilians of a foreign nation should be prosecuted, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Official acts" is that line.
My (limited) understanding is that "presumption" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the opinion. So if a POTUS were do take an action, say, order the military to imprison all members of Congress, and say that this was an official order from him as POTUS, the courts, at some indeterminate future point, would have to figure out if the presumption of official-ness was valid. Sort of a "shoot first, ask for forgiveness later" approach.
but all of these types of hypotheticals are illegal, though. Could he try to do that? sure. You think the military is going to listen to that order? no chance. I just feel like liberals are raising the alarm on a fire that is a controlled burn already.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
All of this is because morons voted for Ralph Nader instead of Gore and people who thought Hillary was worse than Trump. There’s your 5 corrupt judges right there.
i remember when nader was the darling of this forum back in the day.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
1. Expanding SCOTUS to 13
2. Fire Roberts, Alito, and Thomas for corruption
3. Arrest all insurrectionists in Congress
4. Arrest Trump for insurrection
#SCOTUS
also suspend the election so he stays in power. let's go for it!!
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
we already knew the prez was immune from official acts. if not, nearly every wartime president should be locked up. GWB, Obama, Trump, etc. They've all committed war crimes, not even domestic. Otherwise every presidency would be bungled up in litigation with the other side trying to put them in jail.
to me this ruling makes sense. as shitty as it is, as I do believe any president who murders civilians of a foreign nation should be prosecuted, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Official acts" is that line.
My (limited) understanding is that "presumption" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the opinion. So if a POTUS were do take an action, say, order the military to imprison all members of Congress, and say that this was an official order from him as POTUS, the courts, at some indeterminate future point, would have to figure out if the presumption of official-ness was valid. Sort of a "shoot first, ask for forgiveness later" approach.
theres a presumption of innocence when going to trial for the accused. its up to a prosecution to prove otherwise. I think the same applies from this ruling. it starts with a presumption if immunity. its up to a prosecution to prove otherwise....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I can’t help but think Sotomayor must be an idiot if she thinks ordering assignations of your political opponents and taking bribes are promote official business of the president. Stating those scenarios as if they are now protected is just plain stupid and trying to scare everyone into election season.
Amy Coney Barrett wrote: "Take the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not entitled to protection."
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Amy Coney Barrett wrote: "Take the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not entitled to protection."
i am stunned that she wrote that.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,990
Amy Coney Barrett wrote: "Take the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not entitled to protection."
i am stunned that she wrote that.
It sounded like (again, my understanding is limited, and I'm mightily distracted by more pressing personal matters, *and* I only have had time for the MSNBC take thus far) the take was that that would be unprotected, but communications at a federal level -- with DOJ, etc. -- *would* be protected.
I'm hoping to look at more centrist takes in the next day or so. My son, also not a lawyer, also a centrist and not prone to drama, actually read and downloaded/ shared the opinion today, so... I don't know. Today was a sh!tty day all around, I'll leave it at that.
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
If one of the Presidents main official acts is to defend the constitution, can you not then basically do whatever you want if it’s behind the guise of defending the constitution? If you considered the Supreme Court a threat to the constitution could you not then fire or arrest them? Determine Trump is a threat to the constitution, have him arrested? Biden won’t do any of these things because he believes in the institutions but Trump? He’ll have no hesitation to abuse this. It’s just another reckless ruling from this corrupted court.
Watching Dems melt down at this and call for articles of impeachment is embarrassing. This type of behavior has to stop...but it's only getting worse. And I can see how it is difficult when the other side (MAGA) is constantly behaving this way, but come on...
If one of the Presidents main official acts is to defend the constitution, can you not then basically do whatever you want if it’s behind the guise of defending the constitution? If you considered the Supreme Court a threat to the constitution could you not then fire or arrest them? Determine Trump is a threat to the constitution, have him arrested? Biden won’t do any of these things because he believes in the institutions but Trump? He’ll have no hesitation to abuse this. It’s just another reckless ruling from this corrupted court.
Correct. People can try and rationalize this by the "official" and "unofficial" verbiage but I think this sets in motion a slippery slope to a president, indeed, being way above the law because you can argue that anything was in his official duty as president.
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I don't think the arguments before the court ever really addressed the merits is the case, and whether the specific acts were official or not. I read the summary that day and don't recall and deep dive into the case itself. So I'm not they have even made a ruling on that.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'm not optimistic anything happens and if Trump is re-elected, none of it matters based on that little tidbit Robert's dropped at the end about not prosecuting a sitting president.
As for Barrett, I think she is the one who gets it right in her partial dissent from the majority. The President has some protections for sure, but there should be an ability to analyze conduct to determine if it was a private act and that official conduct does not necessarily mean unequivocal immunity.
What is lost in this commentary is that Trump's team was arguing for any act, the president must be first impeached and convicted. That is not the case.
2. This analysis is unnecessary for allegations involving the President’s private conduct because the Constitution offers no protection from prosecution of acts taken in a private capacity. Ante, at 15. Sorting private from official conduct sometimes will be difficult—but not always. Take the President’s alleged attempt to organize alternative slates of electors. See, e.g., App. 208. In my view, that conduct is private and therefore not entitled to protection. See post, at 27–28 (SOTOMAYOR, J., dissenting). The Constitution vests power to appoint Presidential electors in the States. Art. II, §1, cl. 2; see also Chiafalo v. Washington, 591 U. S. 578, 588–589 (2020). And while Congress has a limited role in that process, see Art. II, §1, cls. 3–4, the President has none. In short, a President has no legal authority—and thus no official capacity—to influence how the States appoint their electors. I see no plausible argument for barring prosecution of that alleged conduct.
edit: correct to concurring in part
And notice, nothing about the impeachment process which is political, not criminal.
1. Expanding SCOTUS to 13
2. Fire Roberts, Alito, and Thomas for corruption
3. Arrest all insurrectionists in Congress
4. Arrest Trump for insurrection
#SCOTUS
Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark. The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation. Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214, 246 (1944) (Jackson, J., dissenting). The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.
Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today.
Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
to me this ruling makes sense. as shitty as it is, as I do believe any president who murders civilians of a foreign nation should be prosecuted, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Official acts" is that line.
-EV 8/14/93
My (limited) understanding is that "presumption" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the opinion. So if a POTUS were do take an action, say, order the military to imprison all members of Congress, and say that this was an official order from him as POTUS, the courts, at some indeterminate future point, would have to figure out if the presumption of official-ness was valid. Sort of a "shoot first, ask for forgiveness later" approach.
-EV 8/14/93
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
theres a presumption of innocence when going to trial for the accused. its up to a prosecution to prove otherwise. I think the same applies from this ruling. it starts with a presumption if immunity. its up to a prosecution to prove otherwise....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
-EV 8/14/93
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
There is a path for Jack. tanya gonna sort all this shit out.