Canadian Politics Redux

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

he uses the same stupid rhetoric that trump did. "the liberal elite". "thought police" on university campuses. potentially firing heads of institutions.

hope you feel better soon Darth.

Separately, and seriously, thanks for the well wishes, it's appreciated. Yesterday I felt like crap but tested negative, today I feel better but tested positive (probably messed up yesterday's test). Strangely enough I'm hoping I caught it at Thursday's show (so that I hopefully wasn't spreading it), but there is the chance I picked it up at a funeral the day before.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

he uses the same stupid rhetoric that trump did. "the liberal elite". "thought police" on university campuses. potentially firing heads of institutions.

hope you feel better soon Darth.

Did you watch his speech Saturday evening? It was fairly reasonable with the central theme of uniting Canadians. That's a message I can get behind, no matter who's saying it. In fact in the last election, every party was talking bringing people together while the governing party ran a campaign based on division. But they were reelected, so that seems to be what (a minority of) Canadians want.

And Trudeau is quite familiar with inflammatory rhetoric himself.

I didn't but I will.

Again, I still don't agree at ALL about trudeau's platform being based on division. I know there are certain things he's done and said since then that you consider divisive (and I disagree with), but I don't recall anything he ran on in that vein.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

I know this article is dated by today's standards (April 2022), but I think it speaks to what we are talking about.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bergen-trudeau-convoy-canada-divided-1.6413520

The opposition to anyone in power can stand to lose nothing and gain everything by painting their opponent as "divisive" and "elite" and "not for the people". Conservative politicians seem to like to throw this around a lot. But it doesn't make it true.

The convoy was a fringe element. You'll probably never convince me otherwise. Trudeau probably shouldn't have said that. He also shouldn't have said anti-vaxxers were racists and misogynists (I honestly don't know where he came up with that assertion). He's made some missteps in order to shed light on his detractors, and yes, it has back fired. For the most part, I've found his messaging to be comforting and helpful. Especially in the first year of the pandemic. He was calming. He was reassuring. He was a good leader. Sometimes he messes up when he opens his mouth; no doubt.

If he's guilty of anything, it's that sometimes he says what's really on his mind rather than what he should say: noncommittal double speak political nonsense.

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

he uses the same stupid rhetoric that trump did. "the liberal elite". "thought police" on university campuses. potentially firing heads of institutions.

hope you feel better soon Darth.

Did you watch his speech Saturday evening? It was fairly reasonable with the central theme of uniting Canadians. That's a message I can get behind, no matter who's saying it. In fact in the last election, every party was talking bringing people together while the governing party ran a campaign based on division. But they were reelected, so that seems to be what (a minority of) Canadians want.

And Trudeau is quite familiar with inflammatory rhetoric himself.

I didn't but I will.

Again, I still don't agree at ALL about trudeau's platform being based on division. I know there are certain things he's done and said since then that you consider divisive (and I disagree with), but I don't recall anything he ran on in that vein.

I hear you and get that in the end we’ll largely have to agree to disagree.

However flash back to the last election. ALL politicians were asked by virtually every medical professional in the country to NOT politicize the vaccines, but it was Trudeau that was the first to do so, and pushed his agenda hard (I’m still amazed that Trudeau can apparently tell at a glance who’s vaccinated and who’s not!). Hell, that was probably a major factor that lead up to the dreaded “insurrection” we saw in February. That’s one helluva divisive policy/tactic in my books. Just weeks before he called the unnecessary election he was still endorsing individual choice. And if the Liberals had deigned to show us the work (“science”) that justified the policy they might have shut me up on this long ago. But I have yet to see a strong justification for said policy beyond it giving a political advantage which ultimately backfired given the results (we know this group of Liberals have no hesitations about exploiting tragedies for ideological purposes, they’ve openly admitted it).

Part of why I caught covid may go back to his ridiculous vaccine procurement and rollout. I took my 2 doses of mnra vaccines in the initial days, setting aside my reservations for the “greater good”. Moving forward I wanted one of the more traditional vaccines (which incorporate the virus itself). Those vaccines are available, but require jumping through extra hoops to gain access. To be fair, part of this falls on the city, who haven’t done a good job of informing doctors about who is eligible (why do I need a referral from my doctor for the vaccine I want but can get the other vaccines by walking into most drug stores?). I should/could have pushed back against my doctor sooner (have a phone call scheduled for Thursday), but it’s something I’m generally not comfortable doing, and as I said I don’t think it’s a situation I should have found myself in regardless. If I had fair access, I would have been boosted months ago (although any protection would have worn off by now in any case). Instead my last covid shot was over a year ago now. And just to reiterate, it’s not exclusively the federal government’s problem, much of it does fall on the city of Toronto.

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

I know this article is dated by today's standards (April 2022), but I think it speaks to what we are talking about.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bergen-trudeau-convoy-canada-divided-1.6413520

The opposition to anyone in power can stand to lose nothing and gain everything by painting their opponent as "divisive" and "elite" and "not for the people". Conservative politicians seem to like to throw this around a lot. But it doesn't make it true.

The convoy was a fringe element. You'll probably never convince me otherwise. Trudeau probably shouldn't have said that. He also shouldn't have said anti-vaxxers were racists and misogynists (I honestly don't know where he came up with that assertion). He's made some missteps in order to shed light on his detractors, and yes, it has back fired. For the most part, I've found his messaging to be comforting and helpful. Especially in the first year of the pandemic. He was calming. He was reassuring. He was a good leader. Sometimes he messes up when he opens his mouth; no doubt.

If he's guilty of anything, it's that sometimes he says what's really on his mind rather than what he should say: noncommittal double speak political nonsense.

Once I powered through his opening paragraph it was an interesting read, though Wherry seems to imply the Conservatives are more responsible for the divisions than the Liberals (personally I blame all parties except maybe the BQ who are eternally divisive). If you read Wherry regularly he’s firmly in the Liberal camp. One paragraph where he points out Trudeau’s words made the convoy worse (but no clear admission by Trudeau himself)? But look at the pictures accompanying the article, all “Conservative” groups (except one picture of how kids and others were hand-held and comforted getting their vaccines), even some supposed Nazi imagery (which is such a misrepresentation of that sign it should be laughable. Before you say it wasn’t, I saw that specific sign referenced several times as being supportive of the Nazis. Yes, there were other flags on the first day but we don’t hear about how it was other protesters that ran them out.).

Is it just me or do others remember in 2015 part of Trudeau’s campaign was railing against the out-of-touch Conservative Harper elites?

If Trudeau can’t be mindful of what he’s saying (despite all his ummms and ahhhs), then he shows (to me) how just not ready he was and is. Personally I find it sad, given how formidable his father’s intellect was (whether or not one agreed with his policies). All I can really see Justin as is a raving ideologue. His speech today sounds like he’ll work with the other parties…as long as they agree with him, and his characterization of PP is worlds apart from his congratulatory tweet on Saturday. Instead of talking about Liberal policies and ideas it sounded like he was already on the campaign trail (but don’t we have a deal in place that ensures stability of government for a couple more years?).

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

Not all have the gift of the gab. Some are able to think quickly on their feet to appease the media and those who care about sound bites. I don't. I care about policy and action. If he says a few stupid things here and there that's really not a big problem for me (unless it gets to the level of awfulness of Trump et al).

Harper was out of touch. If he called them elites, so be it. Touche, I suppose. But I do still believe that is a tactic used far more by the right.

I'm not even going to touch "it's Trudeau's fault I got covid".

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

Not all have the gift of the gab. Some are able to think quickly on their feet to appease the media and those who care about sound bites. I don't. I care about policy and action. If he says a few stupid things here and there that's really not a big problem for me (unless it gets to the level of awfulness of Trump et al).

Harper was out of touch. If he called them elites, so be it. Touche, I suppose. But I do still believe that is a tactic used far more by the right.

I'm not even going to touch "it's Trudeau's fault I got covid".

“Fringe minority with unacceptable views” is certainly Trumpian rhetoric, or at least Clintonian.

It might be an interesting experiment to take our political debates back to the radio (thinking back to the perceived outcomes of the Kennedy-Nixon debate). I strongly suspect PP would win the radio debates based on his performance in the HOC and at committee. If Trudeau doesn’t break out sweating or has a meltdown then there’s a good chance he wins the televised version. However the last few debates I’ve watched for our elections, well, I feel calling them debates is being incredibly generous, with candidates talking over each other and moderators unable to control the proceedings.

Apologies for my covid rant there, and I’m sorry you drew the conclusion that I blame Trudeau (though I can see why). I did a poor job of highlighting that it was a number of factors that played into it, not least of which is one I didn’t even mention: personal choices I made. I dragged my heels getting back to my doctor regarding my preferred vaccine, then chose to attend a crowded arena with virtually no protection. I still don’t understand my city’s vaccine policies and admittedly that had a bigger impact on my current situation than the federal government’s policies in this regard. But I do try to own my choices and didn’t in my rant there.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

you're right, the debates are basically a complete waste of time shout-fest.

I don't think that was Trumpian at all. Clintonian? sure.

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

you're right, the debates are basically a complete waste of time shout-fest.

I don't think that was Trumpian at all. Clintonian? sure.

Lol, I wrote out a whole reply then realized we’re more or less agreeing on this point. Glad I didn’t hit post comment prematurely (as I sometimes do).

I would like to circle back to my covid comments yesterday though. I do see why you read it the way you did, but I’m not sure you really read my post given your simplistic summary.

Do I ultimately blame anyone but myself for my present situation? No. Do I think there were external factors (mostly municipal not federal or provincial) that played into it? Yes, but in the end I made my own choices. Did I (yet again) do a poor job expressing myself? Definitely.

Part of why I circled back on this is because, while I understand your not wanting to address my first rant, you seemingly chose to ignore my subsequent mea culpa and clarification. Hopefully now I’ve better explained myself and that angle can be put to bed.

Circling even further back to my first post yesterday regarding the Star’s headline, since I wasn’t able to gain access to the article, I’m willing to give Trudeau (and Hebert) the benefit of the doubt that the Star published an inflammatory headline that wasn’t factual (which, when I studied journalism, I was taught they should be). It speaks to shoddy practices by the publication (back in the day they did send a reporter to snoop around Rob Ford’s house from the adjacent public lands).

I do still, however, maintain that such a headline should be concerning to everyone, regardless who supposedly makes that statement (and if it’s been grossly misrepresented then the publication should see some consequence perhaps). Being familiar with The Star’s practices, this is one of the rare times I’ll give Trudeau the benefit of the doubt.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

sorry, I didn't ignore it, I accepted it but just didn't express that.

as cynical as this might sound, I've grown accustomed to inflammatory headlines, from all sides. Should we be comfortable with it? No, but I don't know how it changes. it just is what it is.

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

sorry, I didn't ignore it, I accepted it but just didn't express that.

as cynical as this might sound, I've grown accustomed to inflammatory headlines, from all sides. Should we be comfortable with it? No, but I don't know how it changes. it just is what it is.

Thanks for acknowledging that, I do appreciate that.

I haven’t given much thought about how to change the headlines. A first thought is vote with our eyes and our dollars by not consuming the product, however I think that would ultimately leave people less informed (a concept I just can’t agree with, even if a bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing, lol). I’d be incredibly leery of having any government regulate the media, but if they did maybe a push for truth in advertising as well.

The only other idea off the top of my head is to go old school with a letter writing campaign and hope that we’re heard. Unfortunately I just don’t see anything changing anytime soon given how the media marketplace works today (news is entertainment, if it bleeds it leads).

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

And another example today of shoddy journalism, wouldn’t let PP finish his statement. And apparently afterwards David Akin told one of PP’s staffers that the man can go fuck himself. What professionalism!

I honestly can’t recall the press being this openly rude to any of the other leaders but as always am open to being corrected. The next 3 years will be entertaining if nothing else, I suppose.

https://youtu.be/gvspkwxCJDA

https://mobile.twitter.com/anthony__koch/status/1569765753150373888

Actually, having read the staffer’s tweet, it’s even worse.

Edit: Akin apologized on twitter but I don’t think he sees the irony (or whatever it is) of his last sentence given how often Trudeau isn’t called on his non-answers. I honestly don’t know what possessed him to think what he was doing was professional or appropriate. He’s the press, not a protester.

Parksy · September 2022

DarthMaeglin said:

And another example today of shoddy journalism, wouldn’t let PP finish his statement. And apparently afterwards David Akin told one of PP’s staffers that the man can go fuck himself. What professionalism!

I honestly can’t recall the press being this openly rude to any of the other leaders but as always am open to being corrected. The next 3 years will be entertaining if nothing else, I suppose.

https://youtu.be/gvspkwxCJDA

https://mobile.twitter.com/anthony__koch/status/1569765753150373888

Actually, having read the staffer’s tweet, it’s even worse.

Edit: Akin apologized on twitter but I don’t think he sees the irony (or whatever it is) of his last sentence given how often Trudeau isn’t called on his non-answers. I honestly don’t know what possessed him to think what he was doing was professional or appropriate. He’s the press, not a protester.

This was mentioned in a political pundit round table... and while you're not wrong about Trudeau and just about every politician giving end around answers to most questions... the issue David Akin had was that as the new leader of the opposition he hasn't opened to the press for a conference or question period which according to those in the journalism field... is unheard of.

Apparently it's extremely unusual for a new opposition leader to not hold a full press conference and I think Akin was upset(?) for some reason about that.

Now that PP is the opposition leader... he has a lot to answer for to the general public... not just the Conservative caucus. Points to Akin for admitting he was wrong... Now for PP to start answering questions.

Parksy · September 2022

DarthMaeglin said:

Does anyone here pay for the Toronto Star? Today they're running a headline that is incredibly troubling on it's surface, apparently Trudeau is saying he won't leave the country in Poilievre's hands. I can only read the first two paragraphs which don't elaborate on what he means.

Seriously, what the fuck does he mean by that? Does he even have a basic understanding of our democracy?

And this good people... is what's wrong with news today lol

Chantal Hebert is a veteran political columnist and a she absolutely leans left. I wouldn't go far to call her outright biased... I've seen and heard her many times critique Trudeau. That said, she knows her shit. Knows her history and has extremely good takes on Canadian politics.

But that's the rub.. these are HER takes. HER opinion. Whether it's Toronto Star, Toronto Sun, or Fox News... 'News' 'Journalism' and 'Opinion' are all being poured into one pot and people can't tell one from another.. and I'm honestly not blaming the public here.

Each one of those entities mentioned... Star, Sun, and Fox News have one goal: Profit.

Now even though the article is within the 'Opinion' section of the News... it should either A: Not be there at all. or B: come with a MASSIVE disclaimer.

My take on this stuff is that.. perhaps generations ago there was a space for it... but with social media being what it is (Twitter etc.) if we wanted Hebert's opinion... we could easily get it from the source. If that makes sense. No need to have to decode the news if the news is news.

Parksy · September 2022

I'll say this as well directed at Darth.... You've cited an example of a misleading headline from a left leaning (Liberal) news source. Granted and valid.

We can either go down this path or you can take it from me... this very much goes both ways. In my personal opinion.. for every left leaning misleading headline from the Star... there are two to three right leaning misleading headlines from the Sun. It absolutely goes both ways and what is worse... is we now have the likes of Rebel News and True North News who take this sort of misleading almost propaganda BS and super charge it to benefit the right (Cons / PPC).

It's all not good. It should all stop. I can only imagine John Lennon writing "Gimme Some Truth" in today's social media environment.

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

And another example today of shoddy journalism, wouldn’t let PP finish his statement. And apparently afterwards David Akin told one of PP’s staffers that the man can go fuck himself. What professionalism!

I honestly can’t recall the press being this openly rude to any of the other leaders but as always am open to being corrected. The next 3 years will be entertaining if nothing else, I suppose.

https://youtu.be/gvspkwxCJDA

https://mobile.twitter.com/anthony__koch/status/1569765753150373888

Actually, having read the staffer’s tweet, it’s even worse.

Edit: Akin apologized on twitter but I don’t think he sees the irony (or whatever it is) of his last sentence given how often Trudeau isn’t called on his non-answers. I honestly don’t know what possessed him to think what he was doing was professional or appropriate. He’s the press, not a protester.

This was mentioned in a political pundit round table... and while you're not wrong about Trudeau and just about every politician giving end around answers to most questions... the issue David Akin had was that as the new leader of the opposition he hasn't opened to the press for a conference or question period which according to those in the journalism field... is unheard of.

Apparently it's extremely unusual for a new opposition leader to not hold a full press conference and I think Akin was upset(?) for some reason about that.

Now that PP is the opposition leader... he has a lot to answer for to the general public... not just the Conservative caucus. Points to Akin for admitting he was wrong... Now for PP to start answering questions.

I hear what you’re saying regarding PP not following the tradition around press conferences, but that by no means excuses what Akin did (not that I think you’re excusing him).

I don’t recall his first press conference as Liberal leader, but it’s a regular occurrence now that Trudeau doesn’t take questions at his appearances. Personally I’d like all politicians to be more accessible to the press and give straight answers, but I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

I was looking for links to post about this and the closest I could come was a column in the Calgary Sun. Every other source that came up on google were ones that would be (somewhat rightfully) dismissed out of hand here: Rebel News, True North and the like. (I also feel I found sufficient information for my initial post on this.)

It would be nice for Akin to directly apologize to PP (the apology’s more generally directed to the public as I read it), but I don’t expect it these days.

I don’t know if I need to add this clarification but I wouldn’t like (and haven’t liked because I think it has happened) it when Trudeau has encountered similar treatment from the press (protesters don’t count on this for me). I didn’t like it when they kept doing it to Trump south of the border as well. It’s 2 factors at play for me: professionalism and respect for the office (regardless who occupies it).

Edit to add the link from the Calgary Sun.

https://calgarysun.com/opinion/columnists/bell-poilievre-trudeau-square-off-and-thats-not-the-only-argy-bargy/wcm/af2da71b-f024-46fc-bf1b-18c5170bd592/amp/

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

I think the Calgary column does ask an interesting question: “…when did anger become a dirty word?”

I still listen to Rage Against The Machine regularly and agree with the lyric “Your anger is a gift.” Where it can become problematic is what is done with the anger. Anger into violence is wrong but anger into protest can be effective.

We just had a case (Edmonton guy and girls) where a display of anger has been called a threat to democracy (not looking to get back into the particulars of that one again, please).

In all honesty I don’t know what I intend with this post other than throwing out some food for thought, and I recognize that there really is no “correct” answer here.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2022

I think anger is fine as long as it's directed at a cause, and maybe indirectly at a person/group at the root of that cause, but not directly at a person/group. Calling someone a traitor and a c*** while yelling at them while cornering them crosses that line, in my opinion.

Parksy · September 2022

DarthMaeglin said:

I think the Calgary column does ask an interesting question: “…when did anger become a dirty word?”

I still listen to Rage Against The Machine regularly and agree with the lyric “Your anger is a gift.” Where it can become problematic is what is done with the anger. Anger into violence is wrong but anger into protest can be effective.

We just had a case (Edmonton guy and girls) where a display of anger has been called a threat to democracy (not looking to get back into the particulars of that one again, please).

In all honesty I don’t know what I intend with this post other than throwing out some food for thought, and I recognize that there really is no “correct” answer here.

This could become a very neat, albeit long debate lol

Perhaps my response will change later on and also would have been different years ago but today when talking about 'anger' amidst political discourse... now is very much not the time.

I would say perhaps there is more need for peaceful passion if that makes sense. Passion over anger.

I think anger in politics is what led to Jan 6th which led to death and scary risks of civil war in the US which I never thought could happen.

I use myself as an example.. because at times I get heated. If I personally voiced my displeasure with certain things the same way I saw other people voice their displeasure about things in the same angry way they do or did..... I don't see any good coming from that.

I'm on record quite a bit here with regards to the hatred towards Liberals. The Edmonton folks are an example of that kind of anger. The 'F*CK TRUDEAU' flags... bumper stickers... middle finger bumper stickers.. are all products in my opinion of anger and frustration. Facebook posts from some ... unhinged... I think is the right word... people. And they are angry.

If anger becomes an accepted norm... and then all of a sudden that norm finds itself manifested on both sides... it will only lead to chaos.

Fuck Trudeau? -> No, Fuck You!
Give my team the middle finger? -> Here's a middle finger right back at ya.
"YOU DON'T BELONG HERE, TRAITOR?" -> "THE FUCK!? NO, YOU DON'T BELONG HERE."
'If you agree with Trudeau, then you can just go ahead and unfriend me.'

Those examples are real life, actual things and they are generally expressed by those who find themselves on the 'right' side of the political spectrum. If those on the 'left' side of the spectrum acted the same way, it would get real bad, real quick. Anger will only escalate. And I dunno... perhaps I come off as 'soft' here but some don't seem to find the "F*ck Trudeau" flags overly offensive or angry.... I do. The language, sharpness, public vulgarity... it's odd to me that it's become normal because those terms and words are by it's nature rooted in anger and frustration.

I say people should take their frustrations out at the ballot box or in Pearl Jam Politics forums LOL

DarthMaeglin · September 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

I think anger is fine as long as it's directed at a cause, and maybe indirectly at a person/group at the root of that cause, but not directly at a person/group. Calling someone a traitor and a c*** while yelling at them while cornering them crosses that line, in my opinion.

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I think the Calgary column does ask an interesting question: “…when did anger become a dirty word?”

I still listen to Rage Against The Machine regularly and agree with the lyric “Your anger is a gift.” Where it can become problematic is what is done with the anger. Anger into violence is wrong but anger into protest can be effective.

We just had a case (Edmonton guy and girls) where a display of anger has been called a threat to democracy (not looking to get back into the particulars of that one again, please).

In all honesty I don’t know what I intend with this post other than throwing out some food for thought, and I recognize that there really is no “correct” answer here.

This could become a very neat, albeit long debate lol

Perhaps my response will change later on and also would have been different years ago but today when talking about 'anger' amidst political discourse... now is very much not the time.

I would say perhaps there is more need for peaceful passion if that makes sense. Passion over anger.

I think anger in politics is what led to Jan 6th which led to death and scary risks of civil war in the US which I never thought could happen.

I use myself as an example.. because at times I get heated. If I personally voiced my displeasure with certain things the same way I saw other people voice their displeasure about things in the same angry way they do or did..... I don't see any good coming from that.

I'm on record quite a bit here with regards to the hatred towards Liberals. The Edmonton folks are an example of that kind of anger. The 'F*CK TRUDEAU' flags... bumper stickers... middle finger bumper stickers.. are all products in my opinion of anger and frustration. Facebook posts from some ... unhinged... I think is the right word... people. And they are angry.

If anger becomes an accepted norm... and then all of a sudden that norm finds itself manifested on both sides... it will only lead to chaos.

Fuck Trudeau? -> No, Fuck You!
Give my team the middle finger? -> Here's a middle finger right back at ya.
"YOU DON'T BELONG HERE, TRAITOR?" -> "THE FUCK!? NO, YOU DON'T BELONG HERE."
'If you agree with Trudeau, then you can just go ahead and unfriend me.'

Those examples are real life, actual things and they are generally expressed by those who find themselves on the 'right' side of the political spectrum. If those on the 'left' side of the spectrum acted the same way, it would get real bad, real quick. Anger will only escalate. And I dunno... perhaps I come off as 'soft' here but some don't seem to find the "F*ck Trudeau" flags overly offensive or angry.... I do. The language, sharpness, public vulgarity... it's odd to me that it's become normal because those terms and words are by it's nature rooted in anger and frustration.

I say people should take their frustrations out at the ballot box or in Pearl Jam Politics forums LOL

Thanks for your thoughts, at the end of the day I suppose we’ll all have our own limits on what’s acceptable.

”Peaceful passion.” I really, really like that idea and am going to work to incorporate that into my own thinking, thanks. To me it can maybe also mean that one sublimates their anger into passion?

I do still leave room for peaceful protests outside of elections but otherwise completely after with your last sentence Parksy (not trying to say you’re against protest obviously).

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