Canadian Politics Redux

HughFreakingDillon

I focused on his appearance as ONE of the factors to illustrate why she might have been fearful ONLY (the other being his actions). 

what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it. 

interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

I focused on his appearance as ONE of the factors to illustrate why she might have been fearful ONLY (the other being his actions). 

what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it. 

interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.

I know far more (and guess most here do as well) about Freeland than any of us knows about the guy. We are allowed to make judgments based on a fulsome picture, which there’s nothing approaching that in regards to the guy. Does anyone know anything about this guy other than one 2 minute clip? That’s nothing near the fulsome picture I mentioned. Freeland’s been in the public eye (BY CHOICE) over 7 years now and has made enough statements and been part of a controversial (to many) government whose policies have had a direct negative impact in the province she was doing business in (not on her personal time). That’s why I feel qualified to pass some degree of judgment on her but need quite a bit more information to judge him. I really needed to explain this?

The days of pieing our politicians (or anyone I suppose) are dead and gone as well.

Now I’m done and won’t comment further (unless addressed directly as in this case) until the RCMP update the public on any investigation. Of course if nothing arises from the investigation we may never hear about it again from them.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I focused on his appearance as ONE of the factors to illustrate why she might have been fearful ONLY (the other being his actions). 

what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it. 

interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.

I know far more (and guess most here do as well) about Freeland than any of us knows about the guy. We are allowed to make judgments based on a fulsome picture, which there’s nothing approaching that in regards to the guy. Does anyone know anything about this guy other than one 2 minute clip? That’s nothing near the fulsome picture I mentioned. Freeland’s been in the public eye (BY CHOICE) over 7 years now and has made enough statements and been part of a controversial (to many) government whose policies have had a direct negative impact in the province she was doing business in (not on her personal time). That’s why I feel qualified to pass some degree of judgment on her but need quite a bit more information to judge him. I really needed to explain this?

The days of pieing our politicians (or anyone I suppose) are dead and gone as well.

Now I’m done and won’t comment further (unless addressed directly as in this case) until the RCMP update the public on any investigation. Of course if nothing arises from the investigation we may never hear about it again from them.

yikes. have a nice break. 

dignin

Why the fuck would anyone feel the need to defend such trash? I'm at a loss.

PJ_Soul

dignin said:

Why the fuck would anyone feel the need to defend such trash? I'm at a loss.

Seriously. It seems pretty ridiculous.

DarthMaeglin

I’m just bouncing through to acknowledge that I am in the wrong and shouldn’t call her what I did. Thanks to this conversation (and my own statements) I’ll work to remember the gender-neutral “asshole” (am I allowed the joke that it’s because everyone has one?).

For what it’s worth I do feel stupid and ashamed for so blatantly not following my own words here. And I do sincerely apologize for that.

DarthMaeglin

Hopefully this will, in fact, be my last post for a bit.

 I want to apologize to the women out there who read my post using a word you consider incredibly offensive. I have no excuse for this because there isn’t one. Vulgarity is one thing but as I understand it that word is the verbal equivalent of kick in the nuts, one can’t get lower (which I realize is an ironic statement given my above posts supporting the Edmonton group).

Rarely do I remove words from my posts beyond for grammatical reasons but this time I blanked it out, trusting it carries through any quotes of the post. I’ve written this post for any women that read my post but won’t see the edit.

This is absolutely not intended to throw shade at Hugh for alluding to it (as I was typing it occurred to me this could be seen as doing so). Not in any way, so please don’t misunderstand me. This is about my personal responsibility for typing the word in full and leaving it there. I feel genuinely badly (as I should).

Thank you for listening (reading).

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Ok, I know I’ll be drawing a fair bit of heat for saying this, and I am, in fact, just trying to understand this.

What is so wrong with what happened to Chrystia Freeland over the weekend?

Now I’ll attempt to explain why these reactions are over the top to me. First, there was seemingly nothing planned about the encounter. The people literally just happened to be in the building when Freeland walked in.  Yes, they used vulgarities and called her names, but I’ll suggest we’ve all been aware of equal or stronger expressions on both sides of the aisle.

Further, none of the clips I’ve seen show anything approaching any sort of threat and neither did they make her gender part of the “attack”.

If the problem is the differences in stature (the implied intimidation), are we then saying only short people can express anger directly to our elected representatives? That’s not equal rights to me.

She’s a public figure, accosted in public, and she is (supposedly) second-in-command of a controversial government (to put it mildly), and where said government has seemingly been pissing on that region, such receptions should almost be expected (wasn’t it Trudeau the First that gave us the West Coast Salute as a reaction to hostile crowds?). As a public figure I feel it’s on her to develop thicker skin than most since as a public figure I feel she’s game for public criticism (politicians have zero problems with public affection).

Personally, the only way lines would have been crossed is if they had showed up at Freeland’s personal residence, a practice I find reprehensible, but that’s not what happened here.

If there’s footage of the encounter that shows verbal threats or attempts at an assault I will eat crow and change my stance but at the moment this feels like we’re being told we can’t express ourselves directly to our elected officials, something I do see as a cornerstone of an open democracy. There is also the possible angle that this is problematic in part because it was white right-wingers.

If I thought for a second that Freeland would have given these people a couple minutes of her time (instead of rushing into the elevator and hiding behind the other women present) that would change my view on this as well.

And to wrap up, for clarity, I’m calling for the maintenance of the right to yell “Fuck Trudeau” to his face right along with your right to yell “Fuck Poilievre” to his face. It cuts both ways and both sides are equally responsible for any deterioration of the political climate.

To start.. there is a line in the sand here between what is considered illegal and worthy of investigation and what is considered just poor behaviour. 

I've had this discussion for many years now with regards to 'free speech.'  Interestingly, my boss and I were discussing the Woodstock '99 documentary and I said to him: "That documentary shows what society becomes without order and law."  

I immediately thought of the whole 'freedom' BS.  No one has absolute freedom.. and that's exactly how I personally want it. The same laws and regulations that ought to prevent that fellow from doing what he did... are the same laws that prevent me from being able to kick his teeth in for doing it. 

So I look at this D-Bag who followed Freeland to an elevator yelling at her and yes absolutely intimidating her.  And without getting too complicated I ask myself... should this be allowed?  My answer is no, absolutely not.  So therefore, what mechanisms do we have to prevent this stuff? Does it mean we have to deny this asshole his freedom to do that crap?  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  I'm sorry, but I'm very much willing to sacrifice that D-Bag's freedom to approach a woman like a large barking dog to protect HER freedom to NOT have to deal with it.  Simple as that.  

Maybe the next time, a server at a restaurant accidentally forgets an order. He now what? Has the right to yell at her abusively because of freedom of speech? Hell no. 

Respect is respect.  Whether it's a politician or a hockey referee.  Simply because they are in a particular position does not make them any less human.  You wanna speak up against a politician?  Peaceful protest and voting. Write to their office. But keep it peaceful.. keep it dignified.  

Now..  I highly doubt the Capt. Alberta D-Bag would be perfectly ok... totally... absolutely fine and dandy if  I went to his wife's workplace or his daughter's school and spoke to them and approached them the way he did to Freeland. 

So to your point about this behaviour being expected... that is disgusting. We have elections for this indifference. That is a just, fair, and decent society.   I will never... ever... consider that to be acceptable.  Not to any politician and not to any political party. 

Ask not... what your country can do for you... but what you can do for your country.   

Be the better people. Don't constantly look at politicians as the benchmark for what Canada is.  Be the people that Canada is.  Be courteous. Be kind. Be respectful.  Be peaceful. 

If folks 'on the right' or the freedom convoy types or the Pierre Polievre fans out there... if they consider this behaviour OK.. and 'expected' then my hope and my honest belief is that they will never see power in Canada.  Ever. 

Freedom to do and say whatever you want wherever you want whenever you want to whomever you want.. is not the cornerstone of democracy. 

Parksy

HughFreakingDillon said:

and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out. 

100%

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out. 

Then why hasn’t the escalation been called out along the way? I won’t give an inch on blaming both sides, sorry.

And I do feel that anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in the public light (including entertainers and sports figures) then they need to prepare themselves to deal with the criticisms as well as the worship.

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out. 

Then why hasn’t the escalation been called out along the way? I won’t give an inch on blaming both sides, sorry.

And I do feel that anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in the public light (including entertainers and sports figures) then they need to prepare themselves to deal with the criticisms as well as the worship.

Dude.. this is so beyond criticism. So beyond. I hadn't even seen the whole thing until now and while I thought maybe what I saw the other day was blown out of proportion a bit.. now I see the whole thing and this is absolutely harassment and intimidation.  My goodness graciousness.  How can any Canadian condone this or consider it expected?  That's disturbing. 

Parksy

Let's look at this another way...  

Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy'  ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?  

Ask yourself...  in fact... picture it in your mind...  what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that. 

Take a minute...  picture it...  substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it. 

Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.

And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit? 

Parksy

My apologies because like.. my blood almost boils at this. 

There is a section of a the population of Canada... I'm going to wishfully call it a FRINGE MINORITY because I honestly hope these types of people are a fringe minority... 

This section of people.. not only condone what this fellow did... but they are sitting at home watching this and cheering this man on.  They're saying "fuckin eh.. wish I could have been there."  

That's not Canada. That's not Canadian. 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

Let's look at this another way...  

Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy'  ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?  

Ask yourself...  in fact... picture it in your mind...  what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that. 

Take a minute...  picture it...  substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it. 

Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.

And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit? 

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

 I had intentionally tried not to reference events south of the border, but I do recall hearing of several instances of people associated with the Trump administration being similarly harassed in public. If there had been the same (loud) universal condemnation of those incidents I would have an easier time condemning this man. But I believe many of the arguments I’ve put forward were used at the time to justify those interactions. The lines can’t shift just because we don’t like who is doing it, which is what I keep observing unfortunately.

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

Let's look at this another way...  

Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy'  ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?  

Ask yourself...  in fact... picture it in your mind...  what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that. 

Take a minute...  picture it...  substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it. 

Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.

And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit? 

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

 I had intentionally tried not to reference events south of the border, but I do recall hearing of several instances of people associated with the Trump administration being similarly harassed in public. If there had been the same (loud) universal condemnation of those incidents I would have an easier time condemning this man. But I believe many of the arguments I’ve put forward were used at the time to justify those interactions. The lines can’t shift just because we don’t like who is doing it, which is what I keep observing unfortunately.

Also trying not to do this...  any evidence to support that claim that anything remotely close to what happened to Freeland happened to Trump? I'll eat crow if you have some. 

These aren't one size fits all situations.  Last night at Biden's speech you had a fellow on a bullhorn yelling "Let's Go Brandon" during his speech and "Fuck Joe Biden."   So there's that.  Is that different than him following Biden... cursing and yelling at him, pointing at him, screaming that he doesn't belong here?   Well... yes in my opinion, very, very, much so. 

And this illustrates my point about freedoms... up to and including Charter protected and fundamental freedoms.   They're all limited.  Every one of them. 

DarthMaeglin

For starters there was at least one call to go after the Trump administration in public.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html

In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/06/27/list-trump-officials-harassed/739928002/

On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

For starters there was at least one call to go after the Trump administration in public.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html

In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/06/27/list-trump-officials-harassed/739928002/

On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.

The bolded above is what I remarkably disagree with.  It is harassment and intimidation and should not be tolerated in any office, street, or elevator. 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

For starters there was at least one call to go after the Trump administration in public.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html

In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/06/27/list-trump-officials-harassed/739928002/

On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.

The bolded above is what I remarkably disagree with.  It is harassment and intimidation and should not be tolerated in any office, street, or elevator. 

And I do understand that that is the majority view here, fair enough.

One of the worst parts of my having brought up the Edmonton encounter is that none of us were talking about the Laith Marouf business where the federal government hired someone to draw up an anti-racism strategy who it turns out is a raging anti-Semite (and possible racist) himself (all of which would have been found with a simple google search apparently).

Parksy

What does the Laith Marouf issue have to do with the clown accosting Freeland?   I'm confused. 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

What does the Laith Marouf issue have to do with the clown accosting Freeland?   I'm confused. 

No reason we shouldn’t be talking about both is my point. I wasn’t going to introduce a second topic when I was having difficulty defending my point of view on the first subject. I’d been hoping someone else might have brought it up, since the Marouf business is far more troubling (to me) than a single goof in Alberta. Marouf’s language on public internet forums was just as offensive as anything Edmonton guy said (still confused why the women are rarely mentioned). And Marouf received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the federal government.

 I own my own part in giving a good smokescreen to distract from this government’s incompetence (a google would have found what a piece of shit Marouf is, but I suspect he ticked too many diversity boxes to warrant close inspection).

Seriously (and this is a general question not directed only at you Parksy), what will it take for people to be critical of this Trudeau’s government? SNC was downplayed and excused, there’s a climate hypocrite in the top job, we’ve had several recent allegations about Lucki being too close to the PMO, hell, we had a terrorist attack happen during the Occupation of Ottawa that we’ve heard far less about, and here, more often than not, there’s crickets. It’s just more than a bit confusing to me, in all honesty.

HughFreakingDillon

there's plenty wrong with the trudeau government, as you pointed out. But as I've said many, many times, the other options, in my eyes, are much, much worse. I will happily vote for someone else who doesn't seem to be a bigger buffoon than JT.