Police Reform (Please Don’t Call It Defund)

Gern Blansten · May 2022

Cropduster-80 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

I can't disagree more. In my mind more police means having the staffing to support constant training. Make them ready for unusual situations rather than plopping their asses in cars and writing speeding tickets.

If someone wants to do something crazy no one is stopping them. 5 police to every 1 civilian won’t even matter considering you can unload 50 rounds in 6 seconds

stopping that person from doing it in the first place is harder and involves spending money on programs that are less popular

well yeah...no way you can stop everything. But you can be better trained.

Parksy · May 2022

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

With respect... not here in Ontario... and most of Canada I think. We have directives known as 'Community Policing' and it's very much pro-active as opposed to reactive. Police engage with people on the streets.. engage in volunteer programs, after school programs, walk public spaces, attend events, school liasons, etc.

We just has an event at my workplace last week for Community Policing. Auxiliary cops and street cops were at a booth open to the public for information, questions etc. and had their K-9 unit here as well to provide information about what they do etc.

One of my trainers many moons ago once spoke about how he would often shake his head when he saw parents attempt to use police as a mechanism for punishment. "Pick up your garbage Johnny, or I'm going to tell that policeman over there." You never want to be afraid of police or have them be seen as the 'Enforcers.' They are for the public to serve the public and WHEN the shit hits the fan... they are the brave humans that will boldly run into a building with a shooter as opposed to out of it. And they should have the skills to match aggression with aggression... but never be the aggressors.

Cropduster-80 · May 2022

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

I can't disagree more. In my mind more police means having the staffing to support constant training. Make them ready for unusual situations rather than plopping their asses in cars and writing speeding tickets.

If someone wants to do something crazy no one is stopping them. 5 police to every 1 civilian won’t even matter considering you can unload 50 rounds in 6 seconds

stopping that person from doing it in the first place is harder and involves spending money on programs that are less popular

well yeah...no way you can stop everything. But you can be better trained.

It’s also hard to quantify an event that doesn’t happen.

policing is about stats. Arrests, clearance rates etc. It’s set up to catch criminals after a crime happens.

You cannot engage in proactive crime prevention and still maintain your stats

Gern Blansten · May 2022

Cropduster-80 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

I can't disagree more. In my mind more police means having the staffing to support constant training. Make them ready for unusual situations rather than plopping their asses in cars and writing speeding tickets.

If someone wants to do something crazy no one is stopping them. 5 police to every 1 civilian won’t even matter considering you can unload 50 rounds in 6 seconds

stopping that person from doing it in the first place is harder and involves spending money on programs that are less popular

well yeah...no way you can stop everything. But you can be better trained.

It’s also hard to quantify an event that doesn’t happen.

policing is about stats. Arrests, clearance rates etc. It’s set up to catch criminals after a crime happens.

You cannot engage in proactive crime prevention and still maintain your stats

Right....that needs to change

HughFreakingDillon · May 2022

Parksy said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

With respect... not here in Ontario... and most of Canada I think. We have directives known as 'Community Policing' and it's very much pro-active as opposed to reactive. Police engage with people on the streets.. engage in volunteer programs, after school programs, walk public spaces, attend events, school liasons, etc.

We just has an event at my workplace last week for Community Policing. Auxiliary cops and street cops were at a booth open to the public for information, questions etc. and had their K-9 unit here as well to provide information about what they do etc.

One of my trainers many moons ago once spoke about how he would often shake his head when he saw parents attempt to use police as a mechanism for punishment. "Pick up your garbage Johnny, or I'm going to tell that policeman over there." You never want to be afraid of police or have them be seen as the 'Enforcers.' They are for the public to serve the public and WHEN the shit hits the fan... they are the brave humans that will boldly run into a building with a shooter as opposed to out of it. And they should have the skills to match aggression with aggression... but never be the aggressors.

but that's also a good argument for "defunding the police". it's not all about taking money away from police forces; it's moving that money away from enforcement and towards engagement, as you outlined above. I think a lot of the "defund" folks would be more than happy if police training contained, in a large part, society engagement training, much like a social worker.

Parksy · May 2022

In general... the whole 'de-fund the police' thing never made sense to me.

Personally I think policing ... just about everywhere, Canada included should be disseminated, analyzed, and reformed. I want to believe that on a level this is happening in Canada, it just takes time... a long time.

Regarding funding though .... such a tough thing especially in a divisive, polarized community. A few years back, I learned that 55% of my property taxes were going to the local police service. And so with that, I couldn't help but think selfishly if not for a few minutes like "Hmmm... I personally pay (this much)... what do the police do for ME?" And it's an honest question that I imagine a lot of people ask. But when I think unselfishly in terms of what the police can do, are doing, and the help they can provide... I'm more than willing to pay.

But a return on investment for me means that the service is professional and effective.

To have a professional and effective police force does mean funding. Funding for training, equipment, and personnel. In Canada... and this is VERY much personal opinion... the other side of the policing problem is the justice system problem. Being a cop.... is one of the most stressful jobs. For a lot of reasons. Part of that stress I think is dealing with the same crooks and the same problems over and over again. Also... going out of your way to put forth that extra effort and extra work to help a community... only to see a justice system let crooks off with barely a slap on the wrist. That kind of stuff will mentally drain a professional. To put it in perspective.. it's like spending 12 hours meticulously building a house of cards... only to have some asshole ruin it over and over and over again. Eventually... you'll run out of motivation to continue building.

Parksy · May 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

Parksy said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten. Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association. It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment.

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc.

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace.

Policing is by definition reactionary. More police does literally nothing. More people to respond after an event

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police

With respect... not here in Ontario... and most of Canada I think. We have directives known as 'Community Policing' and it's very much pro-active as opposed to reactive. Police engage with people on the streets.. engage in volunteer programs, after school programs, walk public spaces, attend events, school liasons, etc.

We just has an event at my workplace last week for Community Policing. Auxiliary cops and street cops were at a booth open to the public for information, questions etc. and had their K-9 unit here as well to provide information about what they do etc.

One of my trainers many moons ago once spoke about how he would often shake his head when he saw parents attempt to use police as a mechanism for punishment. "Pick up your garbage Johnny, or I'm going to tell that policeman over there." You never want to be afraid of police or have them be seen as the 'Enforcers.' They are for the public to serve the public and WHEN the shit hits the fan... they are the brave humans that will boldly run into a building with a shooter as opposed to out of it. And they should have the skills to match aggression with aggression... but never be the aggressors.

but that's also a good argument for "defunding the police". it's not all about taking money away from police forces; it's moving that money away from enforcement and towards engagement, as you outlined above. I think a lot of the "defund" folks would be more than happy if police training contained, in a large part, society engagement training, much like a social worker.

+1. Reassess.. reallocate.

Cropduster-80 · May 2022

It’s easier to get a police officer in a school than it is to get a social worker funding wise.

Again it’s the prevention vs reactive situation

tbergs · May 2022

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple. That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately.

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on: The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves. It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress. But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are.

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now. Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news. Call them out. And do it now. Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives.

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE. Active shooter = go... no matter what. To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun.

I can't imagine the training that would need to take place for these situations. Remember that the majority of work these cops did was likely traffic stops and pulling over drunk drivers. This is an extremely unusual situation.

This should be mandatory training, but who knows what is actually happening. Maybe they became lax during Covid. I can tell you when I was patrol, we spent a few days in actual schools training exactly for these situations every year. Doesn't mean we would have been 100% perfect on a response, but everyone had a base line for what to do. If there wasn't a requirement in Uvalde, there will be now and I'd expect some change in the leadership of that department in a few months.

OnWis97 · May 2022

"Defund" is just so...
...I don't know...
...get a marketing or PR person.

Gern Blansten · May 2022

OnWis97 said:

"Defund" is just so...
...I don't know...
...get a marketing or PR person.

yeah it was a really stupid phrase

Cropduster-80 · May 2022

OnWis97 said:

"Defund" is just so...
...I don't know...
...get a marketing or PR person.

Police modernisation and redeployment of assets to proactively build stronger communities and reduce violence through strategies not involving militarisation isn’t as catchy.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2022

"reform" would have been better, but the back the blue crowd likely would have reacted the same even if the slogan was "please, can we do something about police culture?"

tbergs · May 2022

Just label it support the police, but don't tell anyone support is an acronym that stands for reallocating resources in to the community to provide social supports.

gimmesometruth27 · May 2022

has there ever been a song called "fuck the fire department"? if not, they must be doing something right. better than the police anyway.

nicknyr15 · May 2022

gimmesometruth27 said:

has there ever been a song called "fuck the fire department"? if not, they must be doing something right. better than the police anyway.

What? The fire department don’t go after criminals. Pretty sure the gentleman who made that song had a shady lifestyle. I think only “fire” would say fuck the fire department. I get it. You hate cops. But this is a reach.

gimmesometruth27 · May 2022

nicknyr15 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

has there ever been a song called "fuck the fire department"? if not, they must be doing something right. better than the police anyway.

What? The fire department don’t go after criminals. Pretty sure the gentleman who made that song had a shady lifestyle. I think only “fire” would say fuck the fire department. I get it. You hate cops. But this is a reach.

i don't hate cops. i hate people who do not do their job when called upon to do so. i hate "good guys with guns" who do not do what they are trained to do. have you heard the summaries of the calls to 911 from the children inside that school? the kids were begging the dispatchers to send the police now.

the fire department runs into dangerous situations to save people every day. that is much more than i can say for the cops who stood by and left kids in that school with the gunman.

gimmesometruth27 · May 2022

what is worse, police acting and fucking up by killing unarmed people, or armed police not acting and people getting killed?

nicknyr15 · May 2022

gimmesometruth27 said:

nicknyr15 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

has there ever been a song called "fuck the fire department"? if not, they must be doing something right. better than the police anyway.

What? The fire department don’t go after criminals. Pretty sure the gentleman who made that song had a shady lifestyle. I think only “fire” would say fuck the fire department. I get it. You hate cops. But this is a reach.

i don't hate cops. i hate people who do not do their job when called upon to do so. i hate "good guys with guns" who do not do what they are trained to do. have you heard the summaries of the calls to 911 from the children inside that school? the kids were begging the dispatchers to send the police now.

the fire department runs into dangerous situations to save people every day. that is much more than i can say for the cops who stood by and left kids in that school with the gunman.

Ok. It’s just when someone makes donut jokes multiple times it adds to the idea that they just hate cops. Comparing firemen to cops is apples to oranges. And saying there’s no song called “fuck the fireman” is a huge reach to make your point. But yea. Fuck the police. Until you’re in trouble. Fuck these guys? Yea. But you don’t hear about every time an officer saves a life because they’re just doing their job and it’s not newsworthy. I just don’t get the fuck the police stance. Unless you’re a criminal. Then I get it. If I had to I’d choose being a fireman over a cop 100% of the time. More money, less variables, no “anti fireman” rhetoric to deal with, not dealing with the absolute worst society has to offer every day, and tons of time to do side work and make even more money.

lindamarie73 · May 2022

mace1229 said:

Hobbes said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple. That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately.

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on: The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves. It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress. But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are.

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now. Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news. Call them out. And do it now. Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives.

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE. Active shooter = go... no matter what. To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun.

We don't know the whole story yet. There were several officers that entered the school soon after the shooting started. All of the facts are not in a usable format yet. A lot of people are focusing on video of officers keeping parents back....there were tons of officers there...not just those few.

you're right. I'll reserve further outrage for more information. But I will say...it sounds like there is a cover up happening with changing of stories and facts etc. Seems like massive damage control.

I wonder how the police would treat a suspect who changed their story this many times. Hmm…

Did the police change their story? Or was it media and other non law enforcement officials who were spreading the rumors that turned out to be false and the police the corrected it?

Nailed it there Mace. The media depends on creating shock value that the weak minded eat up and crave. Godbless all involved in this tragedy, the real investigation into this matter is just beginning.

Police Reform (Please Don’t Call It Defund)

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