Police Reform (Please Don’t Call It Defund)

Parksy

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

Shooter arrived at 11:40AM and was shot dead at 12:45PM.  That's over an hour.  There is no negotiation. There is no assessment. He has already shot and killed people. 

If this was a hostage situation... that's different. This was an active shooter situation.  These cops were not trained to do their jobs properly. 

School tweeted about an active shooter at like 1:17PM.  Everything about this stinks. 

An official is already on record as saying that there was a worry cops would be shot. Well no shit sherlock. 

so you are ignoring the CNN article I posted? Cops entered the school at 1144 and isolated him 

They're not supposed to isolate him. They're not supposed to wait. There is no 'wait for backup' in these situations. 

The threat needs to go.  Full stop.  Apart from the fact that they gave the psycho more time to kill... they also prevented EMS from potentially saving kids.  

Gern Blansten

Parksy said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple.  That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately. 

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on:  The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves.  It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress.  But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are. 

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now.  Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news.  Call them out. And do it now.  Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives. 

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE.  Active shooter = go... no matter what.  To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun. 

We don't know the whole story yet. There were several officers that entered the school soon after the shooting started. All of the facts are not in a usable format yet. A lot of people are focusing on video of officers keeping parents back....there were tons of officers there...not just those few.

you're right. I'll reserve further outrage for more information. But I will say...it sounds like there is a cover up happening with changing of stories and facts etc. Seems like massive damage control. 

It's a tough spot. And we just can't blame the police for not being experienced with those situations. It's not smart to go running into a situation (especially a school with it's maze of rooms/hallways/stairways/restrooms, etc) without having some idea as to what is going on.

If the CNN article is right it seems to me that they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Sorry to say this.. .cause you're a beauty...  but it's only a 'tough spot' for us civilians.  Not police. 

This is what they're trained for. I have done this training with cops.  At a school. In Canada. With mock drills... mock students. Mock gunman.  This is the book on these situations. Active shooter... you go in, you find, you kill. 

"How can you tell who the gunman is?"  They train for this.
"What about multiple shooters?"  They train for this. 
"Couldn't they mistake a student for the shooter?"  They train for this.  

I get it. But we all know that training probably happens once a year. Or maybe just after a shooting like this. 

In a perfect world they storm in immediately, several die from gunshots and the shooter gets taken out. But if the shooter had already killed the students and was isolated we just add to the body count.

We don't have all of the information yet. I will be outraged as hell if that info says I should be.

Parksy

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple.  That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately. 

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on:  The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves.  It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress.  But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are. 

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now.  Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news.  Call them out. And do it now.  Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives. 

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE.  Active shooter = go... no matter what.  To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun. 

We don't know the whole story yet. There were several officers that entered the school soon after the shooting started. All of the facts are not in a usable format yet. A lot of people are focusing on video of officers keeping parents back....there were tons of officers there...not just those few.

you're right. I'll reserve further outrage for more information. But I will say...it sounds like there is a cover up happening with changing of stories and facts etc. Seems like massive damage control. 

It's a tough spot. And we just can't blame the police for not being experienced with those situations. It's not smart to go running into a situation (especially a school with it's maze of rooms/hallways/stairways/restrooms, etc) without having some idea as to what is going on.

If the CNN article is right it seems to me that they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Sorry to say this.. .cause you're a beauty...  but it's only a 'tough spot' for us civilians.  Not police. 

This is what they're trained for. I have done this training with cops.  At a school. In Canada. With mock drills... mock students. Mock gunman.  This is the book on these situations. Active shooter... you go in, you find, you kill. 

"How can you tell who the gunman is?"  They train for this.
"What about multiple shooters?"  They train for this. 
"Couldn't they mistake a student for the shooter?"  They train for this.  

I get it. But we all know that training probably happens once a year. Or maybe just after a shooting like this. 

In a perfect world they storm in immediately, several die from gunshots and the shooter gets taken out. But if the shooter had already killed the students and was isolated we just add to the body count.

We don't have all of the information yet. I will be outraged as hell if that info says I should be.

My cousin is a retired SGT in Arizona.  I went to a gun range with him and I couldn't hit the backside of a barn from 25 feet. 

He sent the paper target out 100 feet. And within one second put one in the middle of the forehead and one in the middle of the chest. One second.  My mind was absolutely blown.  I looked at him like "How the fuck?"   He said: "If a single member of my unit can't do what I just did  right here and now.. they can't be cops."  

Stuff like this shouldn't be subject to opinion and "if"... this is life and death.  They NEED to be prepared. None of what I'm saying about active shooters is opinion.  That's the textbook... and it sounds like they weren't following it....  unless for whatever reason they just 'do shit differently in Texas'     It should never take kids dying to change that mentality. 

Parksy

Ask yourself if an EMT is out there driving around in an Ambulance without knowing how to attend to a gunshot victim. Sure, it may not happen often (In Canada) ... but that is simply not an option or a liability that anyone wants to take on.

HughFreakingDillon

Parksy said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple.  That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately. 

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on:  The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves.  It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress.  But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are. 

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now.  Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news.  Call them out. And do it now.  Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives. 

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE.  Active shooter = go... no matter what.  To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun. 

We don't know the whole story yet. There were several officers that entered the school soon after the shooting started. All of the facts are not in a usable format yet. A lot of people are focusing on video of officers keeping parents back....there were tons of officers there...not just those few.

you're right. I'll reserve further outrage for more information. But I will say...it sounds like there is a cover up happening with changing of stories and facts etc. Seems like massive damage control. 

It's a tough spot. And we just can't blame the police for not being experienced with those situations. It's not smart to go running into a situation (especially a school with it's maze of rooms/hallways/stairways/restrooms, etc) without having some idea as to what is going on.

If the CNN article is right it seems to me that they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Sorry to say this.. .cause you're a beauty...  but it's only a 'tough spot' for us civilians.  Not police. 

This is what they're trained for. I have done this training with cops.  At a school. In Canada. With mock drills... mock students. Mock gunman.  This is the book on these situations. Active shooter... you go in, you find, you kill. 

"How can you tell who the gunman is?"  They train for this.
"What about multiple shooters?"  They train for this. 
"Couldn't they mistake a student for the shooter?"  They train for this.  

I get it. But we all know that training probably happens once a year. Or maybe just after a shooting like this. 

In a perfect world they storm in immediately, several die from gunshots and the shooter gets taken out. But if the shooter had already killed the students and was isolated we just add to the body count.

We don't have all of the information yet. I will be outraged as hell if that info says I should be.

My cousin is a retired SGT in Arizona.  I went to a gun range with him and I couldn't hit the backside of a barn from 25 feet. 

He sent the paper target out 100 feet. And within one second put one in the middle of the forehead and one in the middle of the chest. One second.  My mind was absolutely blown.  I looked at him like "How the fuck?"   He said: "If a single member of my unit can't do what I just did  right here and now.. they can't be cops."  

Stuff like this shouldn't be subject to opinion and "if"... this is life and death.  They NEED to be prepared. None of what I'm saying about active shooters is opinion.  That's the textbook... and it sounds like they weren't following it....  unless for whatever reason they just 'do shit differently in Texas'     It should never take kids dying to change that mentality. 

I get what you're saying here about your cousin, but that's also in a controlled setting with ZERO pressure. go from zero pressure to life and death, that changes things significantly. 

mace1229

Hobbes said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

The 'cops' in Uvalde are cowards... plain and simple.  That's not to say all cops are. This is honestly the first I've ever heard of a situation like this where the cops don't engage immediately. 

I will say this.. and this will something to keep an eye on:  The problem with cops and the thin blue line, or the blue brotherhood, or the blue lives matter crowd is that they all protect themselves.  It's an unwritten rule that cops help cops and that cops don't rat other cops out. That's just wrong. Plain and simple wrong. There are a lot of excellent cops out there and they need credit for not only being brave but for putting up with a lot of shit and stress.  But this is an opportunity to show just how brave you are. 

Police across your country need to condemn this and call for all of their badges.. now.  Don't let it be the people protesting outside the station... call out your own. Don't ignore social media... don't ignore the news.  Call them out. And do it now.  Their negligence, cowardice, and laziness cost children's lives. 

The personal safety of an officer takes precedence in ALMOST every scenario .. EXCEPT THIS ONE.  Active shooter = go... no matter what.  To me that's the MOST important reason you cops have a gun. 

We don't know the whole story yet. There were several officers that entered the school soon after the shooting started. All of the facts are not in a usable format yet. A lot of people are focusing on video of officers keeping parents back....there were tons of officers there...not just those few.

you're right. I'll reserve further outrage for more information. But I will say...it sounds like there is a cover up happening with changing of stories and facts etc. Seems like massive damage control. 

I wonder how the police would treat a suspect who changed their story this many times. Hmm…

Did the police change their story? Or was it media and other non law enforcement officials who were spreading the rumors that turned out to be false and the police the corrected it?

Gern Blansten

Parksy said:

Ask yourself if an EMT is out there driving around in an Ambulance without knowing how to attend to a gunshot victim. Sure, it may not happen often (In Canada) ... but that is simply not an option or a liability that anyone wants to take on.

but again....we don't have the whole story yet. You seem to be convinced that the police did nothing. I don't think that is the case.

Parksy

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

Ask yourself if an EMT is out there driving around in an Ambulance without knowing how to attend to a gunshot victim. Sure, it may not happen often (In Canada) ... but that is simply not an option or a liability that anyone wants to take on.

but again....we don't have the whole story yet. You seem to be convinced that the police did nothing. I don't think that is the case.

I'm going based on your story and what I've read.  The facts here seem to be quite accurate and quite honestly show that the police didn't follow what I at least know to be the formal procedure during an active shooter.  

And I will admit that my responses are somewhat emotional, admittedly.  But this wasn't Pete Carroll blowing a play call that cost a Super Bowl.  These poor decisions potentially cost kids their lives. 

And while majority of the blame of this goes directly to the shooter...  we don't exist in such a linear society.  Policy issues very much come into play. Gun culture comes into play. Systemic inequity comes into play. And from what I can tell.. a complete lack of police training and leadership has also come into play. 

I watched an interview with cock-stain Lindsey Graham about this and he spouted off about how "I can never understand why someone would do this."  Well....  yeah I can see your point there Lindsey... but knowing that fucked up people do fucked up things should make that light bulb go off to suggest that the people who AREN'T fucked up are doing everything they can to prevent the fucked up people from doing fucked up things.  The obvious remedy being how did he buy such weapons... but that's just one layer of the shit onion. 

Gern Blansten

Parksy said:

Gern Blansten said:

Parksy said:

Ask yourself if an EMT is out there driving around in an Ambulance without knowing how to attend to a gunshot victim. Sure, it may not happen often (In Canada) ... but that is simply not an option or a liability that anyone wants to take on.

but again....we don't have the whole story yet. You seem to be convinced that the police did nothing. I don't think that is the case.

I'm going based on your story and what I've read.  The facts here seem to be quite accurate and quite honestly show that the police didn't follow what I at least know to be the formal procedure during an active shooter.  

And I will admit that my responses are somewhat emotional, admittedly.  But this wasn't Pete Carroll blowing a play call that cost a Super Bowl.  These poor decisions potentially cost kids their lives. 

And while majority of the blame of this goes directly to the shooter...  we don't exist in such a linear society.  Policy issues very much come into play. Gun culture comes into play. Systemic inequity comes into play. And from what I can tell.. a complete lack of police training and leadership has also come into play. 

I watched an interview with cock-stain Lindsey Graham about this and he spouted off about how "I can never understand why someone would do this."  Well....  yeah I can see your point there Lindsey... but knowing that fucked up people do fucked up things should make that light bulb go off to suggest that the people who AREN'T fucked up are doing everything they can to prevent the fucked up people from doing fucked up things.  The obvious remedy being how did he buy such weapons... but that's just one layer of the shit onion. 

I understand for sure. It's just such a fucked up situation overall. 

OnWis97

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

Cropduster-80

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

Funding is way too high. 

Uvalde spends 40 percent of their entire budget on police. They have a SWAT unit. It’s a small town. Plus they are crawling with border patrol agents too. 

Spending more on police means police end up responding to more calls that shouldn’t even involve police.  If police became more specialised they would be smaller.  

Police are trained to be aggressive. Full stop 
95 percent (probably) of all calls don’t require those skills 

increasing police spending takes it away from something else. Usually that’s touchy felt stuff like mental health, community outreach, poverty programs. The governor of Texas cut 200 million from mental health programs then blamed the violence on a mental health problem 

Hobbes

Biden’s Executive Order:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/25/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-historic-executive-order-to-advance-effective-accountable-policing-and-strengthen-public-safety/

mace1229

I saw a witness say there were police inside engaging the whole time. Who she was and how she knows that I don’t know. But I’m sure the entire force was on scene, I doubt anyone was following up on a stolen bike report at the time, so it makes sense there could be several outside trying to create a perimeter while others were inside.
And I have no idea what was going on inside. We know children were still alive in that room, so he could have been threatening to kill more if they break the door down, I don’t think we know yet.
The videos look bad of families begging cops to go in. But we don’t know what was happening, and I’m betting more likely than not there was a lot more going on than what we are aware of yet.

HughFreakingDillon

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace. 

Gern Blansten

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace. 

In my opinion they need to hire more police...less military equipment and more people on the streets that are better trained and better supervised.

Cropduster-80

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace. 

Policing is by definition reactionary.  More police does literally nothing.  More people to respond after an event 

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police 

Gern Blansten

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace. 

Policing is by definition reactionary.  More police does literally nothing.  More people to respond after an event 

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police 

I can't disagree more. In my mind more police means having the staffing to support constant training. Make them ready for unusual situations rather than plopping their asses in cars and writing speeding tickets.

HughFreakingDillon

but what cropduster said is true...why aren't we a society of prevention instead of reaction? why do we lie in wait for disaster to strike when we have the tools to prevent said disaster in the first place?

Cropduster-80

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

^ cops as individuals can be fine. Cops as an institution are rotten.  Good cops in an awful institution are awful by association.  It’s hard to be a good cop swimming upstream in that river of sewage 

Yeah. And that makes it so much more hopeless. It's not a person problem, it's a culture problem. And I don't think you can just take Derrick Chauvin out of the Minneapolis PD and solve anything. The culture doesn't seem to be about serve and protect but about power and intimidation. The old days of cops wanting to actually help people might not be as real as they seem. But it really does feel like it's become more and more about flexing some muscle. It shows not only in the behavior but also in the more military dress and equipment. 

We probably spent too many decades pedestalizing them and they started to buy into the hype. And, because every accusation is a confession, it turns out they tend to be fairly snowflakey, like refusing to work Lynx (WNBA) games because the players wore some kind of "stop the violence" warmup shirts that included names on the back (including Dallas PD, after that incident). After the George Floyd murder, a local pizza shop decided to stop giving cops discounts...and people were outraged. Really, I think the idea of giving cops free/discounted meals might be a contributor to that culture...that message that "you guys are the greatest."

It's difficult to articulate, but they seem to have drifted from protecting people to protecting some intangible ideal (which happens to coincide nicely with showing everyone who's boss).

In my opinion the problem is funding. We need to have more police, more supervision, training, etc. 

To me it's no different than education. You have to throw money at it to make it better and no one wants to do that.

From what I've read, police in the US are chronically over funded. that money needs to be re-routed to social services at a slow but gradual pace. 

Policing is by definition reactionary.  More police does literally nothing.  More people to respond after an event 

prevention requires money too. Money not for the police 

I can't disagree more. In my mind more police means having the staffing to support constant training. Make them ready for unusual situations rather than plopping their asses in cars and writing speeding tickets.

If someone wants to do something crazy no one is stopping them. 5 police to every 1 civilian won’t even matter considering you can unload 50 rounds in 6 seconds 

stopping that person from doing it in the first place is harder and involves spending money on programs that are less popular