The Democracy vs Authoritarianism Thread

dankind · April 2022

Wow.

“If you hate something …”

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

OnWis97 said:

I got paywalled by the story, so I might be missing some of your point.

Worldwide and in the US there is a growing fascination with authoritarianism. Now, if you ask most Trump voters if they want dictatorship, they'll say "no" and they'll be telling the truth. Yet every step along the way will be supported.

I used to talk about it on here but few people were interested and one member in particular got sick of it. In the United States, I think people are pretty confident that the Republic will survive and that authoritarianism can't happen here.

I still think it's a major concern. In tact, I think it's happening. The GOP is weakening our faith in democracy. They NEVER lose elections; they're always rigged. For the first time in my life, the primary enemy is domestic. The Dems? They just don't seem to see the gravity of the situation.

Someone I think everyone* should be following is Sarah Kendzior, a scholar of authoritarian states and someone who's predicted almost everything that has happened.

*well, almost everyone; people like probably should not be following her.

haha, are you referring to me? don't worry, I won't do this if you mention me:

Will Smith erupts on Chris Rock in uncensored Oscars video

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

brianlux said:

61 viewings and no response. Well, that's actually kind of cool to know that the threat of authoritarianism taking over much of the world is not such a big concern after all. Such a relief! I gotta stop reading shit and go rock me some Ted Nugent and maybe a little Kid Rock. Yaaaarrrr! God Bless these fuckers!

man, the ol' man gets riled up when his threads don't take off like a rocket! haha. it's all good brian. sometimes this place ebbs and flows. it's a topic of interest for sure. And I see it's now getting some traction.

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

I just read the article (thanks Mickey, I was paywalled on your link Brian). while initially I was alarmed at Trump and his obvious reaches for authoritarianism, and some of his party's willingness to embrace it. But we have seen that democracy still works. sure, each party would probably love to be in power forever. In theory. But I can't see things changing so drastically that it actually comes to fruition. the limits are being tested, but so far, she's holding. And I think it would even withstand further onslaught than it already has.

Gern Blansten · April 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

Gern Blansten · April 2022

I had a guy in my office a few days ago picking up his tax returns. This is the guy I mentioned in another thread that refused to pay his 2021 quarterly tax estimates because of Biden and now paid a big penalty for that.

He was yammering about how things were going to change soon because of god. Suggesting that Biden would be out and, I assume, tRump/god back in.

Funny because a year ago in January we talked around insurrection time and he asked me if I though Biden was still going to be POTUS in a week or whatever. I said "yeah of course tRump lost" and he couldn't believe it.

This guy is my insurance agent.

cincybearcat · April 2022

The weird thing is you see people following along cause what is happening they believe already or can be convinced easily. But as soon as you have 1 dissent...you are removed from the pack.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Just look at Disney. Disney hasn't really done much of anything. Then they have to come out in support of their gay workers and instantly cancelled by the soft people that bitch about cancel culture. They continue to bitch and complain and accuse everyone of exactly what they are doing.

So I have no idea if it could happen here or not. 6 years ago I would have said no way. But I also said Trump wouldn't win the nomination....then he wouldn't win the election....then the party would run away from his bs back towards their core values.....So what the hell do I know!

cincybearcat · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

I had a guy in my office a few days ago picking up his tax returns. This is the guy I mentioned in another thread that refused to pay his 2021 quarterly tax estimates because of Biden and now paid a big penalty for that.

He was yammering about how things were going to change soon because of god. Suggesting that Biden would be out and, I assume, tRump/god back in.

Funny because a year ago in January we talked around insurrection time and he asked me if I though Biden was still going to be POTUS in a week or whatever. I said "yeah of course tRump lost" and he couldn't believe it.

This guy is my insurance agent.

Like functional alcoholics, the past 6 years has proven there are a lot of functional morons in the USA.

Halifax2TheMax · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

I had a guy in my office a few days ago picking up his tax returns. This is the guy I mentioned in another thread that refused to pay his 2021 quarterly tax estimates because of Biden and now paid a big penalty for that.

He was yammering about how things were going to change soon because of god. Suggesting that Biden would be out and, I assume, tRump/god back in.

Funny because a year ago in January we talked around insurrection time and he asked me if I though Biden was still going to be POTUS in a week or whatever. I said "yeah of course tRump lost" and he couldn't believe it.

This guy is my insurance agent.

I’d get a new insurance agent.

Halifax2TheMax · April 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

I got paywalled by the story, so I might be missing some of your point.

Worldwide and in the US there is a growing fascination with authoritarianism. Now, if you ask most Trump voters if they want dictatorship, they'll say "no" and they'll be telling the truth. Yet every step along the way will be supported.

I used to talk about it on here but few people were interested and one member in particular got sick of it. In the United States, I think people are pretty confident that the Republic will survive and that authoritarianism can't happen here.

I still think it's a major concern. In tact, I think it's happening. The GOP is weakening our faith in democracy. They NEVER lose elections; they're always rigged. For the first time in my life, the primary enemy is domestic. The Dems? They just don't seem to see the gravity of the situation.

Someone I think everyone* should be following is Sarah Kendzior, a scholar of authoritarian states and someone who's predicted almost everything that has happened.

*well, almost everyone; people like probably should not be following her.

haha, are you referring to me? don't worry, I won't do this if you mention me:

Tell him, “get my wife out your mouth?”

cblock4life · April 2022

Kat said:

Gern Blansten said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

What about a candidate that believes freedom of speech needs to be limited? i.e. OAN being restricted as to what "news" they can report without certain elements of truth?

Imagine the bureaucracy that would have to exist to police that. But isn't it necessary? How can these places be allowed to spew such bullshit?

I'm certain that the founding fathers never envisioned something like the internet. It was such a simpler time, right? Humans can be very smart when they want to be...we have to come up with a solution to limit the spread of total BS and obvious lies. That isn't free speech to me...it's harmful. Something like a Supreme Court but a group that has oversight and the final say...without being politicized. Am I a dreamer...probably. How does one get a majority to even agree to do that? ah...voting. It would need an amendment to the Constitution, right? sigh.

Yes this is true but I find many who lack common sense. If it’s common sense then it’s not complicated enough to bother with. All book smart no street smart.

As for one group of individuals finalizing news releases, etc….my thoughts went directly to what Putin does. Plus it barely works for the supreme court and that’s only occasionally if Roberts goes left.

I don’t see it going towards an authoritarian country, I see more of a civil war type event that invokes change. Hope I’m wrong.

brianlux · April 2022

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator". Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high. I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists. At least not one that could rise to that level of power. Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources. If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

Go Beavers · April 2022

I find survey results interesting and I was poking around and found this from Pew from 29 years ago:

'As their standard of living goes from bad to worse and uncertainty about the future increases, the Russian people have soured on democracy.

By a margin of 51% to 31% Russians say they now favor a strong leader, rather than a democratic form of government to solve their country’s problems. Only 17 months ago, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a comparable Times Mirror Center poll found just the opposite division of opinion – 39% of Russians favored a strong hand at the helm and 51% wanted a democratic solution to their nation’s daunting problems.'

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/1993/01/27/the-russians-rethink-democracy/

It hits on that appeal of authoritarianism over a representative democracy; it's just an easier form of government where people believe it can provide relief to whatever their larger scale struggle is. I've also read somewhere that consistently 25-30% of any population will express support of authoritarianism, so it's always something lurking under the surface of democracies where the right leader can exploit. It's why it's extremely dangerous for leaders to fabricate domestic threats out of different groups, whether they're culturally/ethnically different, immigrants, or people who hold opposing political beliefs. Followers can get drawn into giving up rights central to a democracy if they think the authoritarian leader can extinguish the threat and "save the country".

For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information. Those working against democracy will encourage idolatry over facts and chip away at trust in the system by encouraging cynicism and distrust.

brianlux · April 2022

Go Beavers said:

I find survey results interesting and I was poking around and found this from Pew from 29 years ago:

'As their standard of living goes from bad to worse and uncertainty about the future increases, the Russian people have soured on democracy.
By a margin of 51% to 31% Russians say they now favor a strong leader, rather than a democratic form of government to solve their country’s problems. Only 17 months ago, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a comparable Times Mirror Center poll found just the opposite division of opinion – 39% of Russians favored a strong hand at the helm and 51% wanted a democratic solution to their nation’s daunting problems.'
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/1993/01/27/the-russians-rethink-democracy/
It hits on that appeal of authoritarianism over a representative democracy; it's just an easier form of government where people believe it can provide relief to whatever their larger scale struggle is. I've also read somewhere that consistently 25-30% of any population will express support of authoritarianism, so it's always something lurking under the surface of democracies where the right leader can exploit. It's why it's extremely dangerous for leaders to fabricate domestic threats out of different groups, whether they're culturally/ethnically different, immigrants, or people who hold opposing political beliefs. Followers can get drawn into giving up rights central to a democracy if they think the authoritarian leader can extinguish the threat and "save the country".
For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information. Those working against democracy will encourage idolatry over facts and chip away at trust in the system by encouraging cynicism and distrust.

"For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information."

Well said! And unsettling to think about in terms of where the US is heading on all those points. But I will say, at least we are not where places like Russia, China, North Korea (and others) are at.

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

I suppose there's always going to be a certain segment of any population that is more interested in someone else just fixing it rather than engaging in the solution themselves....just didn't anticipate it being that many.

Gern Blansten · April 2022

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator". Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high. I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists. At least not one that could rise to that level of power. Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources. If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP. And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government.

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991. I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

OnWis97 · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator". Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high. I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists. At least not one that could rise to that level of power. Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources. If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP. And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government.

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991. I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do." He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

Gern Blansten · April 2022

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator". Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high. I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists. At least not one that could rise to that level of power. Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources. If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP. And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government.

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991. I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do." He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

Agreed. But he also wasn't always so dishonest. Sometimes he would point out that something the dems did or supported was good. I can't think of examples but I remember liking that about him. Then it all just went to shit. He made more money by promoting hatred of anything dem/liberal.

HughFreakingDillon · April 2022

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator". Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high. I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists. At least not one that could rise to that level of power. Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources. If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP. And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government.

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991. I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do." He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

I actually recently read an article where the writer credits Rush with exactly that, shaping the current "govern by fear" that the republican party and base has become.

The Democracy vs Authoritarianism Thread

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