The Democracy vs Authoritarianism Thread

Halifax2TheMax

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

I got paywalled by the story, so I might be missing some of your point.

Worldwide and in the US there is a growing fascination with authoritarianism. Now, if you ask most Trump voters if they want dictatorship, they'll say "no" and they'll be telling the truth. Yet every step along the way will be supported.

I used to talk about it on here but few people were interested and one member in particular got sick of it. In the United States, I think people are pretty confident that the Republic will survive and that authoritarianism can't happen here. 

I still think it's a major concern. In tact, I think it's happening. The GOP is weakening our faith in democracy. They NEVER lose elections; they're always rigged. For the first time in my life, the primary enemy is domestic. The Dems? They just don't seem to see the gravity of the situation.

Someone I think everyone* should be following is Sarah Kendzior, a scholar of authoritarian states and someone who's predicted almost everything that has happened.

*well, almost everyone; people like probably should not  be following her.

haha, are you referring to me? don't worry, I won't do this if you mention me:

Tell him, “get my wife out your mouth?”

cblock4life

Kat said:

Gern Blansten said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post.   Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

What about a candidate that believes freedom of speech needs to be limited? i.e. OAN being restricted as to what "news" they can report without certain elements of truth?

Imagine the bureaucracy that would have to exist to police that. But isn't it necessary? How can these places be allowed to spew such bullshit?

I'm certain that the founding fathers never envisioned something like the internet. It was such a simpler time, right? Humans can be very smart when they want to be...we have to come up with a solution to limit the spread of total BS and obvious lies. That isn't free speech to me...it's harmful. Something like a Supreme Court but a group that has oversight and the final say...without being politicized. Am I a dreamer...probably. How does one get a majority to even agree to do that? ah...voting. It would need an amendment to the Constitution, right? sigh.

Yes this is true but I find many who lack common sense.  If it’s common sense then it’s not complicated enough to bother with.  All book smart no street smart.  

As for one group of individuals finalizing news releases, etc….my thoughts went directly to what Putin does.  Plus it barely works for the supreme court and that’s only occasionally if Roberts goes left.  

I don’t see it going towards an authoritarian country, I see more of a civil war type event that invokes change. Hope I’m wrong. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

Go Beavers

I find survey results interesting and I was poking around and found this from Pew from 29 years ago:

'As their standard of living goes from bad to worse and uncertainty about the future increases, the Russian people have soured on democracy.

By a margin of 51% to 31% Russians say they now favor a strong leader, rather than a democratic form of government to solve their country’s problems. Only 17 months ago, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a comparable Times Mirror Center poll found just the opposite division of opinion – 39% of Russians favored a strong hand at the helm and 51% wanted a democratic solution to their nation’s daunting problems.'

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/1993/01/27/the-russians-rethink-democracy/

It hits on that appeal of authoritarianism over a representative democracy; it's just an easier form of government where people believe it can provide relief to whatever their larger scale struggle is. I've also read somewhere that consistently 25-30% of any population will express support of authoritarianism, so it's always something lurking under the surface of democracies where the right leader can exploit. It's why it's extremely dangerous for leaders to fabricate domestic threats out of different groups, whether they're culturally/ethnically different, immigrants, or people who hold opposing political beliefs. Followers can get drawn into giving up rights central to a democracy if they think the authoritarian leader can extinguish the threat and "save the country".

For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information. Those working against democracy will encourage idolatry over facts and chip away at trust in the system by encouraging cynicism and distrust.

brianlux

Go Beavers said:

I find survey results interesting and I was poking around and found this from Pew from 29 years ago:

'As their standard of living goes from bad to worse and uncertainty about the future increases, the Russian people have soured on democracy.

By a margin of 51% to 31% Russians say they now favor a strong leader, rather than a democratic form of government to solve their country’s problems. Only 17 months ago, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a comparable Times Mirror Center poll found just the opposite division of opinion – 39% of Russians favored a strong hand at the helm and 51% wanted a democratic solution to their nation’s daunting problems.'

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/1993/01/27/the-russians-rethink-democracy/

It hits on that appeal of authoritarianism over a representative democracy; it's just an easier form of government where people believe it can provide relief to whatever their larger scale struggle is. I've also read somewhere that consistently 25-30% of any population will express support of authoritarianism, so it's always something lurking under the surface of democracies where the right leader can exploit. It's why it's extremely dangerous for leaders to fabricate domestic threats out of different groups, whether they're culturally/ethnically different, immigrants, or people who hold opposing political beliefs. Followers can get drawn into giving up rights central to a democracy if they think the authoritarian leader can extinguish the threat and "save the country".

For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information. Those working against democracy will encourage idolatry over facts and chip away at trust in the system by encouraging cynicism and distrust.

"For a healthy democracy to maintain, it needs trust in the institutions, engagement in the process, and open access to factual, accurate information."

Well said!  And unsettling to think about in terms of where the US is heading on all those points.  But I will say, at least we are not where places like Russia, China, North Korea (and others) are at.

HughFreakingDillon

I suppose there's always going to be a certain segment of any population that is more interested in someone else just fixing it rather than engaging in the solution themselves....just didn't anticipate it being that many. 

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP.  And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government. 

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991.  I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

OnWis97

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP.  And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government. 

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991.  I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do."  He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP.  And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government. 

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991.  I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do."  He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

Agreed.  But he also wasn't always so dishonest. Sometimes he would point out that something the dems did or supported was good.  I can't think of examples but I remember liking that about him. Then it all just went to shit. He made more money by promoting hatred of anything dem/liberal.

HughFreakingDillon

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP.  And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government. 

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991.  I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

I consider Rush a pioneer. Dating back to pre-internet, he seems to be the originator in "outrage at everything the Democrats do."  He walked so today's gaslighters could run.

I actually recently read an article where the writer credits Rush with exactly that, shaping the current "govern by fear" that the republican party and base has become. 

brianlux

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Gern Blansten said:

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one? 

I'm all for a liberal one.

you're all for a liberal authoritarian??

yes....an FDR

My wife has said a number of times (and don't tell her I quoted her here, lol), "What we need is a benevolent dictator".   Well, now before we all get excited, you should know her standards are very high.  I'm pretty sure she knows no such person exists.  At least not one that could rise to that level of power.  Sadly, I really do believe rising to a high level of power in this particular time in history requires a fair to high degree of corruption or at least support from corrupt sources.  If that is true, then we are looking at is more a systemic problem with the system as a whole.

I agree...who could have guessed that something like Fox News could hypnotize enough people to change the political landscape. They have turned blue collar workers who have no business voting GOP to rabidly support the GOP.  And the main reason being that they hate government and that Democrats = big government. 

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

I was an anti-Clinton dittohead in 1991.  I thought Rush Limbaugh made some good points and his radio show was interesting and funny so I went down that path for awhile. Then I started disagreeing with some of his stances. And then Bush cut taxes and went to war which really pissed me off because the one message I liked from the GOP was balancing budgets and they clearly didn't give two shits about that.

Rush Limbaugh is the perfect example of how the GOP morphed into total bullshit. He just followed the money.

Now Fox News isn't even enough for some of these idiots. OAN, Newsmax, Infowars...pushing the boundary of absolute bullshit.

Excellent point, Gern.  And the fact that these sources of radical opinion (obviously not "news sources") are gaining as much traction as they are adds to my concern that America in leaning toward an authoritarian system.  And you also well point out how the authoritarian leaning leaders are really not interested in the welfare of their voters. 

OnWis97

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

brianlux

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

Yeah this is pure tRumpism.  Punish anyone who opposes you or your position.  Really bizarre shit. Desantis is trying to outtRump tRump

OnWis97

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

My goal was definitely not to get into discussion about the bill itself. Just that when someone dare question it, they're "woke" and must be punished by the government...particularly a man who has a realistic change to be president some day.

I know I said I don't want to get into the bill, but my guess is it's either meant to make sure no teacher mentions their "partner" (or students mention their "dads")  or that they're addressing nothing that's actually been a problem. Gaslighting doesn't just occur on Twitter...it's done in much more "official" ways. And it's working; look at how revved up people are. So what Disney's calling out might be more nuanced than "Go Groomers!"

Halifax2TheMax

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

The language of the bill is purposely written in such a way as to be ambiguous so that it doesn’t mean “ban,” but rather leaves it up to interpretation, requiring someone to “test” it or, as intended, to chill or quell any discussion. What’s the definition of “classroom instruction?”

What public school teacher wants to be the Rosa Parks of “Don’t Say Gay?” And when they do, and it gets kicked to the courts, on one side or the other, like mask mandates, the fix is in, if not in the lower courts, at SCOTUS.

Kids are concerned with all manner of things and when a kid asks a question or says “why is something some way (insert topic here-why does Heather have two mommies), the only adult in the classroom, typically, is the teacher. The bill makes their response potentially subject to a violation of law, investigation and potential job loss, based on a classroom of kids and what they tell their parents or another adult what was said or discussed.

Fucking Soviet/communist era rat out your neighbor kind of shit. Yea, it can’t happen here.

Dems ought to pass a “Don’t say God” bill and teachers should refuse to lead their class in the Pledge of Allegiance. Watch heads explode.

gimmesometruth27

authoritarianism is happening in florida right now. and the "freeeeedooooommmmmm!!!!!" crowd is just letting it happen.

HughFreakingDillon

Halifax2TheMax said:

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

The language of the bill is purposely written in such a way as to be ambiguous so that it doesn’t mean “ban,” but rather leaves it up to interpretation, requiring someone to “test” it or, as intended, to chill or quell any discussion. What’s the definition of “classroom instruction?”

What public school teacher wants to be the Rosa Parks of “Don’t Say Gay?” And when they do, and it gets kicked to the courts, on one side or the other, like mask mandates, the fix is in, if not in the lower courts, at SCOTUS.

Kids are concerned with all manner of things and when a kid asks a question or says “why is something some way (insert topic here-why does Heather have two mommies), the only adult in the classroom, typically, is the teacher. The bill makes their response potentially subject to a violation of law, investigation and potential job loss, based on a classroom of kids and what they tell their parents or another adult what was said or discussed.

Fucking Soviet/communist era rat out your neighbor kind of shit. Yea, it can’t happen here.

Dems ought to pass a “Don’t say God” bill and teachers should refuse to lead their class in the Pledge of Allegiance. Watch heads explode.

100 fucking percent on that. 

brianlux

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

My goal was definitely not to get into discussion about the bill itself. Just that when someone dare question it, they're "woke" and must be punished by the government...particularly a man who has a realistic change to be president some day.

I know I said I don't want to get into the bill, but my guess is it's either meant to make sure no teacher mentions their "partner" (or students mention their "dads")  or that they're addressing nothing that's actually been a problem. Gaslighting doesn't just occur on Twitter...it's done in much more "official" ways. And it's working; look at how revved up people are. So what Disney's calling out might be more nuanced than "Go Groomers!"

That all makes sense, thanks. 

Halifax2TheMax said:

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

The language of the bill is purposely written in such a way as to be ambiguous so that it doesn’t mean “ban,” but rather leaves it up to interpretation, requiring someone to “test” it or, as intended, to chill or quell any discussion. What’s the definition of “classroom instruction?”

What public school teacher wants to be the Rosa Parks of “Don’t Say Gay?” And when they do, and it gets kicked to the courts, on one side or the other, like mask mandates, the fix is in, if not in the lower courts, at SCOTUS.

Kids are concerned with all manner of things and when a kid asks a question or says “why is something some way (insert topic here-why does Heather have two mommies), the only adult in the classroom, typically, is the teacher. The bill makes their response potentially subject to a violation of law, investigation and potential job loss, based on a classroom of kids and what they tell their parents or another adult what was said or discussed.

Fucking Soviet/communist era rat out your neighbor kind of shit. Yea, it can’t happen here.

Dems ought to pass a “Don’t say God” bill and teachers should refuse to lead their class in the Pledge of Allegiance. Watch heads explode.

That all makes sense as well, thanks.

For the record, when I was teaching, no  kid ever got off easy if he or she called another kid a "fag" in a derogatory sense or made any other kind of slighting remark about someone's sexuality.  I had no tolerance for that kind of behavior. 

brianlux

gimmesometruth27 said:

authoritarianism is happening in florida right now. and the "freeeeedooooommmmmm!!!!!" crowd is just letting it happen.

Florida and Texas, augh!  I know good people who live in both states.  I don't know how they do it, except they are in places like Austin and West Palm Beach which are fairly atypical for those states.

Halifax2TheMax

The US and it’s democracy experiment are dead, it’s just a slow death spiral in slow motion but the outcome will be the same. Thanks Kelly Ann CONway and Putin on the ritz. Good luck ‘Murica. Tell me none of this sounds familiar.

New research on Trump voters: They're not the sharpest tools in the box

Now there's proof: Trump's voters lack "cognitive sophistication," often believe Bible is literal word of God

The problem of the contemporary American fascist right is rooted in education and information. And this problem is not simply about attainment of some quantity of education, but of the quality and content of education, how that leads generations of white Christian Americans to process information about a wide range of issues. The segregation academies that proliferated in the mid-1960s and accelerated in the 1970s have taught millions of Americans a radically skewed version of American and world history and encouraged a continued segregated society. The homeschooling movement augmented this division, and further denigrated the value of knowledge.

White fundamentalist Christians have always segmented their communities from the rest of America, and even exert considerable control over public educational institutions, particularly in rural areas and in the states which embraced slavery. White fundamentalist Christians distrust mainstream social institutions like education and print media, and they actively seek to eliminate public education and to provide alternative sources of information. As a result, people who identify with and participate in white Christian denominations and who subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs have substantial intellectual deficits that make them easy marks for a wide variety of schemes — from financial fraud to conspiracy theories.

If you can't read the New York Times, you're going to believe whatever you hear on talk radio or on television. It's simply impossible for people with limited vocabularies and low levels of cognitive functioning to make sense of the complex realities of the political world. And we now have a population where for 55 years substantial fractions of white people have gone to private fundamentalist Christian schools that leave them both indoctrinated in Christian nationalism and ill-prepared to process any additional information. Worse, we now have over a million children in a given year who are homeschooled by parents who are uneducated white fundamentalists — and that total has been pretty constant for three decades since the homeschooling movement blossomed.

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/23/new-research-on-voters-theyre-not-the-sharpest-tools-in-the-box/

cincybearcat

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

Yes, I get it.  Cause on these issues I find myself keep scratching my head.  On the surface some of these don;t seem quite so bad...but I think it is what it can actually be used for.  If I didn't already know the motivations of DeSantis I would be less worried about it.  

Additionally, I've seen some of the items from math text books that they have removed, or rejected.  Gotta be honest there as well...unsure why they felt the need to interject social issues into a math text book.  Not all for sure.  And to be honest, if my daughter was taking that math and showed me the problem (one graph dealing with bias) I would certainly do a double take.  It doesn't offend me or worry me tbh but it is certainly a head scratcher.  Again - if the motivations were pure on the side of the GOP I could find myself leaning there way on some of these things.  But I'm concerned it's opening the door to more.

brianlux

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

What's going on with Disney may be a sign as well. As far as I can tell, they spoke out against the "Don't say gay" bill and now state GOP is going to punish them. Someone let me know if there's more going on than this. I admit this is not something I'm following details on but it kinda seems straight out of the fascist playbook.

I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed by a law that says, "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I hesitate to get into this too much here (it might be better to have a separate thread on this), but I don't think sexual orientation or gender identity is even a subject that kids that young need to be concerned with in a classroom setting.  That doesn't mean I would have a problem with a boy telling his parents he wanted to wear a dress to his first day of school in kindergarten (true story about a famous rock drummer's kid, but I'm not at liberty to say who)- I thought that was kind of cute- but I don't see those subjects as being part of a curriculum for instruction at that age. 

Yes, I get it.  Cause on these issues I find myself keep scratching my head.  On the surface some of these don;t seem quite so bad...but I think it is what it can actually be used for.  If I didn't already know the motivations of DeSantis I would be less worried about it.  

Additionally, I've seen some of the items from math text books that they have removed, or rejected.  Gotta be honest there as well...unsure why they felt the need to interject social issues into a math text book.  Not all for sure.  And to be honest, if my daughter was taking that math and showed me the problem (one graph dealing with bias) I would certainly do a double take.  It doesn't offend me or worry me tbh but it is certainly a head scratcher.  Again - if the motivations were pure on the side of the GOP I could find myself leaning there way on some of these things.  But I'm concerned it's opening the door to more.

Yeah, can't say that I would trust DeSantis any farther than I could throw him.

As far as removing things math-wise, I would have started with "45". 

brianlux

Yesterday in France, far-righter Marine Le Pen was defeated by Emmanuel Macron, and in Slovenia, far-righter Prime minister Janez Jansa was defeated by the Freedom Movement party (which is odd because that's a party, not a candidate, something I don't understand).  But the point being, both countries rejected authoritarian candidates.  That good news for Democracy! 

OnWis97

brianlux said:

Yesterday in France, far-righter Marine Le Pen was defeated by Emmanuel Macron, and in Slovenia, far-righter Prime minister Janez Jansa was defeated by the Freedom Movement party (which is odd because that's a party, not a candidate, something I don't understand).  But the point being, both countries rejected authoritarian candidates.  That good news for Democracy! 

And I'm already reading about how these elections were rigged.

brianlux

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

Yesterday in France, far-righter Marine Le Pen was defeated by Emmanuel Macron, and in Slovenia, far-righter Prime minister Janez Jansa was defeated by the Freedom Movement party (which is odd because that's a party, not a candidate, something I don't understand).  But the point being, both countries rejected authoritarian candidates.  That good news for Democracy! 

And I'm already reading about how these elections were rigged.

Commie left wing libtards wreck everything, don't they?

Hadn't read that.  Any links?

OnWis97

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

Yesterday in France, far-righter Marine Le Pen was defeated by Emmanuel Macron, and in Slovenia, far-righter Prime minister Janez Jansa was defeated by the Freedom Movement party (which is odd because that's a party, not a candidate, something I don't understand).  But the point being, both countries rejected authoritarian candidates.  That good news for Democracy! 

And I'm already reading about how these elections were rigged.

Commie left wing libtards wreck everything, don't they?

Hadn't read that.  Any links?

I should have spelled out the cespool...It was trending on twitter. Lots of basement dwellers.

brianlux

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

OnWis97 said:

brianlux said:

Yesterday in France, far-righter Marine Le Pen was defeated by Emmanuel Macron, and in Slovenia, far-righter Prime minister Janez Jansa was defeated by the Freedom Movement party (which is odd because that's a party, not a candidate, something I don't understand).  But the point being, both countries rejected authoritarian candidates.  That good news for Democracy! 

And I'm already reading about how these elections were rigged.

Commie left wing libtards wreck everything, don't they?

Hadn't read that.  Any links?

I should have spelled out the cespool...It was trending on twitter. Lots of basement dwellers.

"basement dwellers" LOL

 Ya!

brianlux

Read Heather's letter tonight (thanks always to Mr. Rat for posting them!), it explains a lot.  We've been down this road before and it does not bode well.  The question is, are we smart enough and have the will to not go there?  Good question. 

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

Read Heather's letter tonight (thanks always to Mr. Rat for posting them!), it explains a lot.  We've been down this road before and it does not bode well.  The question is, are we smart enough and have the will to not go there?  Good question. 

Independents are programmed to consider republicans as a viable option, even after they overtly tell us they don’t believe freedom and rights  and are indifferent about a coordinated attempt to end the United States. They make excuses “well it’s only trump and we don’t like him anymore.” But the the tons of midterm candidates citing his election lies?” Don’t matter. It will not be pretty come January.