The Democracy vs Authoritarianism Thread

brianlux · April 2022

Having read a lot about the rise of authoritarianism and the dangers Democracy is facing for it's viable future, I thought it would be useful to have a thread in which we talk about this issues as it continues to grow more and more in it's reality and importance.

I'll start the thread with this article that I'm gifting from the New York Times (at least I hope I've done this right and the link works- let me know if not and I'll copy and past the article):

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/opinion/china-russia-putin.html

brianlux · April 2022

61 viewings and no response. Well, that's actually kind of cool to know that the threat of authoritarianism taking over much of the world is not such a big concern after all. Such a relief! I gotta stop reading shit and go rock me some Ted Nugent and maybe a little Kid Rock. Yaaaarrrr! God Bless these fuckers!

Donald Trump hosts man who called for death of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton at White House The Independent The Independent

mickeyrat · April 2022

patience grasshopper

brianlux · April 2022

mickeyrat said:

patience grasshopper

Yes master.

But what I'm wondering is, is the topic to close to the bone? Or have I been deluded by things I have read that would indicate Democracy truly is endangered? Is it too hot a topic? I suppose we shall see.

tempo_n_groove · April 2022

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

patience grasshopper

Yes master.
But what I'm wondering is, is the topic to close to the bone? Or have I been deluded by things I have read that would indicate Democracy truly is endangered? Is it too hot a topic? I suppose we shall see.

People thought that it was happening w Trump being elected. I say no way. Watch that China video where they are locking people up in their homes. We aren't headed in that direction by a person.

I think we are heading that direction because of technology though.

mickeyrat · April 2022

so, the offered opinion piece illustrates how single person rule as seen in countries such as Russia and China can lead to errors with global consequences, but only in that our mistakes have been to be too reliant on such countries for certain products thereby being affected by those errors. Not necessarily as I read the op, which strikes me as rather alarmist in tone. understandable to a point as something to watch and guard against for sure but I dont believe we are there or even close really.

Observation about traction, yesterday was a really super light day of activity here. something like 10 or so posts all day including your 2 after posting this thread. no way to know if it was guests or bots giving a look or if it was members passing on by for now. just something to consider.

Lerxst1992 · April 2022

Great topic Brian, AMT has been a little sparse of late. The members may be a bit preoccupied whether to fork over for MSG, Camden or hop on a plane to your great state for the multitude of shows there or maybe Ohana, are you going to any?

OnWis97 · April 2022

I got paywalled by the story, so I might be missing some of your point.

Worldwide and in the US there is a growing fascination with authoritarianism. Now, if you ask most Trump voters if they want dictatorship, they'll say "no" and they'll be telling the truth. Yet every step along the way will be supported.

I used to talk about it on here but few people were interested and one member in particular got sick of it. In the United States, I think people are pretty confident that the Republic will survive and that authoritarianism can't happen here.

I still think it's a major concern. In tact, I think it's happening. The GOP is weakening our faith in democracy. They NEVER lose elections; they're always rigged. For the first time in my life, the primary enemy is domestic. The Dems? They just don't seem to see the gravity of the situation.

Someone I think everyone* should be following is Sarah Kendzior, a scholar of authoritarian states and someone who's predicted almost everything that has happened.

*well, almost everyone; people like probably should not be following her.

Lerxst1992 · April 2022

Yes there is definitely a growing fascination. Information and news is split into so many different directions, it's easy for trump supporters to go through life with their world view constantly confirmed and unchallenged

An interesting line from Friedmans article:

"High-coercion authoritarian systems are low-information systems — so they often drive blind more than they realize."

Gern Blansten · April 2022

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes there is definitely a growing fascination. Information and news is split into so many different directions, it's easy for trump supporters to go through life with their world view constantly confirmed and unchallenged

An interesting line from Friedmans article:

"High-coercion authoritarian systems are low-information systems — so they often drive blind more than they realize."

This^^^

Real news is fake...fake news is real. And there is no convincing them differently.

We are in a very strange time and I fear this exposes our main weakness which is freedom of speech. How can the government envisioned by the founding fathers function when the very right they cherished is being used to destroy it?

Kat · April 2022

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post.

Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

dankind · April 2022

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

I’d rather leave than fight. When nearly half of the aged nation is in opposition and the younger generations actually prefer autocracy to democracy, I think it’s a losing battle.

I’ve been to better countries.

Parksy · April 2022

brianlux said:

Having read a lot about the rise of authoritarianism and the dangers Democracy is facing for it's viable future, I thought it would be useful to have a thread in which we talk about this issues as it continues to grow more and more in it's reality and importance.

I'll start the thread with this article that I'm gifting from the New York Times (at least I hope I've done this right and the link works- let me know if not and I'll copy and past the article):
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/opinion/china-russia-putin.html

Have not read due to having to sign up for an account type thing

Gern Blansten · April 2022

dankind said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

I’d rather leave than fight. When nearly half of the aged nation is in opposition and the younger generations actually prefer autocracy to democracy, I think it’s a losing battle.

I’ve been to better countries.

I'm not sure that is true about the younger generation. They are less religious and less capitalist in my view.

mickeyrat · April 2022

see if you guys can access this?

China and Russia Are Giving Authoritarianism a Bad Name https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/opinion/china-russia-putin.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqYhkTFUaCybSRdkhrxqAwvPPwbo1w2XjNzOUQHNa0vgUBc6A50LJL-JFVucE4g66FpVHIaN9A7t71PNeNEhgDFClq5CKwM4MZilpoNr2Azpv1tecBLlgtDLnYDe0JOpxm-zk5FjOKjW_ANyp2nwnIAlioZRgZAvqjSROnvGZZ7Yzjtpu3v4hBYR4QCMAZUSJufrqDxZ8OraWf02Wq1l2C6wCB2alzZPL4KkAcQ5SFVvBUHp5hG4549pbM9oWV73tt5QeZUvZ1WtNbXkNFZJDfw

Gern Blansten · April 2022

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

What about a candidate that believes freedom of speech needs to be limited? i.e. OAN being restricted as to what "news" they can report without certain elements of truth?

Imagine the bureaucracy that would have to exist to police that. But isn't it necessary? How can these places be allowed to spew such bullshit?

brianlux · April 2022

Thanks for great posts all around, good people, and apologies for my impatience! (I'm thinking another 70 years and I should be hitting around the 85 to 90% level of perfection, lol)

The general consensus here seems to be (in a nutshell) "No way will we become an authoritarian nation." I wish I felt that way (yes, Mickey, I do feel a bit "alarmist" about this topic, it's true.) My concern stems from what I see as a long, slow trend toward becoming a nation less interested in "government by the people" and more prone to "follow the leader" and "don't ask me to get involved". Blind acceptance is slowly becoming the norm. That opens the door to authoritarianism.

And another point (which will lead me out on a limb) regards population trend. This is something I have been observing for several decades: Well educated people tend to procreate less, poorly educated people tend to procreate more. This, I believe, is part of the reason for the "dumbing down" of America. It's also part off the reason for more and more people being willing to stand behind a man like Trump who can appeal to the more base human nature and less to an intelligent viewpoint. Frankly, that scares me. And I have to admit, I am part of the problem. I'm well educated (fact, not brag) and I had no kids (though I did help raise two boys and I did work as a teacher, so maybe I can cut myself a little slack there).

I hope I'm wrong about a lot of what I perceive as happening to this country. I fear I am right.

Thanks again for good input here, and LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!

Kat · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

What about a candidate that believes freedom of speech needs to be limited? i.e. OAN being restricted as to what "news" they can report without certain elements of truth?

Imagine the bureaucracy that would have to exist to police that. But isn't it necessary? How can these places be allowed to spew such bullshit?

I'm certain that the founding fathers never envisioned something like the internet. It was such a simpler time, right? Humans can be very smart when they want to be...we have to come up with a solution to limit the spread of total BS and obvious lies. That isn't free speech to me...it's harmful. Something like a Supreme Court but a group that has oversight and the final say...without being politicized. Am I a dreamer...probably. How does one get a majority to even agree to do that? ah...voting. It would need an amendment to the Constitution, right? sigh.

Gern Blansten · April 2022

Kat said:

Gern Blansten said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

What about a candidate that believes freedom of speech needs to be limited? i.e. OAN being restricted as to what "news" they can report without certain elements of truth?

Imagine the bureaucracy that would have to exist to police that. But isn't it necessary? How can these places be allowed to spew such bullshit?

I'm certain that the founding fathers never envisioned something like the internet. It was such a simpler time, right? Humans can be very smart when they want to be...we have to come up with a solution to limit the spread of total BS and obvious lies. That isn't free speech to me...it's harmful. Something like a Supreme Court but a group that has oversight and the final say...without being politicized. Am I a dreamer...probably. How does one get a majority to even agree to do that? ah...voting. It would need an amendment to the Constitution, right? sigh.

I'm convinced that we have to eliminate the true fake news and clamp down on the first amendment in the process. We can't rely on capitalism to squash it by not advertising on their networks because there are enough ignorant people to support it.

It really is spelled out perfectly in Idiocracy. Fucking president Camacho.

dankind · April 2022

Gern Blansten said:

dankind said:

Kat said:

Sometimes I look at a topic and then think about it before I might post. Great topic, Brian.
I'm wondering where the word "freedom" fits in with authoritarianism. They don't seem compatible to me. Pigs will fly before I'd vote for a candidate who wants to eliminate freedoms that so many Americans died to protect, including family members. Our Democracy is based on ideas that I still support and will work to keep and improve. Some things have become corrupted but that doesn't mean I won't work to eliminate the corruption, not the ideals.

I’d rather leave than fight. When nearly half of the aged nation is in opposition and the younger generations actually prefer autocracy to democracy, I think it’s a losing battle.

I’ve been to better countries.

I'm not sure that is true about the younger generation. They are less religious and less capitalist in my view.

Harvard (and University of Melbourne) does get stuff wrong, but I suggest that you read not only this article but also the robust study to which it refers: https://qz.com/848031/harvard-research-suggests-that-an-entire-global-generation-has-lost-faith-in-democracy/.

One note I took from it that addresses your comment directly is that it has nothing to do with religion or capitalism; it’s more about successfully getting things accomplished. And millennials and Gen Z think that more progress can be made under authoritarian rule.

Prove them wrong, and democracy might have a shot.

Spoiler alert: Washington, D.C., will not prove them wrong.

Gern Blansten · April 2022

But do they prefer a religious conservative authoritarian or a liberal one?

I'm all for a liberal one.

The Democracy vs Authoritarianism Thread

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