Thanks,
everybody. The objective of starting this poll was to see what protocol is for
shipping fees on items not being delivered as described. Thank you for all the
input (maybe not the weasel guy comment 😊, though it did provide a much-needed
laugh). Hopefully, this post will help buyers/sellers in the future. Even
though I didn't opt to keep the Vault, and even though we had differing views
on how the transaction could be best handled, I still want to see the seller
get it to the right buyer. And I'd still recommend this seller to anyone who is
looking for some vaults.
IMO if the item was listed as "great condition" and bubbles were present and existed prior to the shipping process then re-shipping is on the seller. The buyer, should they want to compromise - and which they're not obligated to do, could play nice and share in the return shipping fees as others have suggested, or perhaps the seller could negotiate a small discount/credit on the item sold.
Hope you're able to find a solution where both parties walk away satisfied
0
Options
on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,419
Although I think the seller has to pay the return fees if there was a defect that wasn’t disclosed (unintentionally), I can vouch that the seller in this instance was A+ to deal with in two separate deals I had with him.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
I have to say that I am very disappointed that this transaction was posted publicly. Especially under the guise of being anonymous. It would only take about 30 seconds for anyone here to see my post listing my vaults and especially noticing I have relisted this vault with an updated description.
As is usually the case there is a LOT more to this story and I should have trusted my gut after a lot of negotiating with this buyer over several of my vaults and just not gone through with the sale. But since he has already made this public in an obvious attempt to gain public sympathy and force my hand here I will state the minimum facts without getting too far into it.
First off I have sold MANY items on here, espressobens, eBay, discogs, avsforum etc over the last 15-20 years. In all that time i can only remember a couple times where a buyer received something and was not 100% satisfied but in those very few situations we were able to come to a solution that worked for both parties in good faith.
I have my records listed as great condition and still stand by that. I honesty find I have never really listened to my vault records. As a fan of both PJ and records I always get sucked into buying them, maybe spin one or two of the records and then they sit on my shelf collecting dust. This record has sat vertically stored on a shelf next to my other vault records most likely since I purchase it. I have never really handled it other then when i placed it there and took it out to package.
My records are in my media room, which is a dark room that I always have the lights low in. I took the record off the shelf, checked the usual possible trouble spots (corners, sleeves) and packaged it up. This is not a situation of some scammer trying to pull a fast one on a buyer. I did not see the waviness on the cover.
I will also say after seeing the pictures that were sent to me, it honestly looks like a manufacturing issue. It either came to me like that and I never really considered it an issue, I mean man I have received records sealed in much, much worse shape. Or the glue that holds the cover together came lose over the last couple years as maybe they didnt use enough. It does not look like damage i could have possibly incurred. It could be the paper used in the cover. I have seen a similar waviness develop on some of the older PJ posters over the years.
So anyway, yes the cover is not perfect. I sold the record to the buyer for $100 + shipping. This was lower than my asking price on a record I believe was already priced very fairly. After seeing the issue. I immediately offered a $10 discount. He refused and wanted a full refund. Fine I refunded the $100. He then wanted his original shipping refunded. I didnt quite agree with this as I felt we should be able to work out some kind of acceptable compromise but fine whatever I sent the $24 shipping back as well. Now he also wants return shipping. At this point I feel I am taking a huge loss on what I personally see as a very small issue. I paid $70.20 for this new from 10 club. I said look I will make the discount $20. At that point I am not really making any money on the record, he gets to keep it and at least I dont lose money this deal. He says he says he wants a $35 refund. That is not a compromise in my book. That’s a massive discount on a minor issue.
He did offer to hold the record and have it shipped from his house if and when i find another seller which at this point appears to be my best option but it never should have gotten this far. I will also note that after buying this he bought 2 more of this same vault sealed for a little cheaper than he bought this one opened, so now he sees my price as too high which is why I believe he is refusing my discount offers. That really raises a lot of questions about this whole thing in my mind.
So that is my side of the story. Again I really did not want to post this but felt the way this was brought to light might make potential buyers shy away from buying any of my other records as they might think I was doing something shady here, and there is nothing further from the truth. Going forward I will be doing extra diligence on these vaults and sending pics to buyers before they go out to make sure there are no more issues. I always provide pics when asked, which was not the situation in this case FYI, but will be sending pics either way.
$24? Was this an international sale? I stay away from int'l. Too many problems, variables. If it ends up costing $50 to ship and return, I'd try to find an agreeable prices for the record so it stays put. That type of shipping makes the whole transaction negative otherwise.
$24 was cheapest lower 48 shipping. Shipping costs are nuts right now. Sent a record to Canada it was $46 and Ireland was like $62.
Media mail, my friend. It would not cost more than $4 to ship that within the US.
Media is the way to go. Except at my local PO it won’t let you add insurance at the kiosk so you have to wait in the huge line. Even then, half the time the dude at the counter says I can’t insure it and the other half they do. And a good chunk of the time I get dirty looks when I ask to ship media. It’s all very odd.
I have to say that I am very disappointed that this transaction was posted publicly. Especially under the guise of being anonymous. It would only take about 30 seconds for anyone here to see my post listing my vaults and especially noticing I have relisted this vault with an updated description.
As is usually the case there is a LOT more to this story and I should have trusted my gut after a lot of negotiating with this buyer over several of my vaults and just not gone through with the sale. But since he has already made this public in an obvious attempt to gain public sympathy and force my hand here I will state the minimum facts without getting too far into it.
First off I have sold MANY items on here, espressobens, eBay, discogs, avsforum etc over the last 15-20 years. In all that time i can only remember a couple times where a buyer received something and was not 100% satisfied but in those very few situations we were able to come to a solution that worked for both parties in good faith.
I have my records listed as great condition and still stand by that. I honesty find I have never really listened to my vault records. As a fan of both PJ and records I always get sucked into buying them, maybe spin one or two of the records and then they sit on my shelf collecting dust. This record has sat vertically stored on a shelf next to my other vault records most likely since I purchase it. I have never really handled it other then when i placed it there and took it out to package.
My records are in my media room, which is a dark room that I always have the lights low in. I took the record off the shelf, checked the usual possible trouble spots (corners, sleeves) and packaged it up. This is not a situation of some scammer trying to pull a fast one on a buyer. I did not see the waviness on the cover.
I will also say after seeing the pictures that were sent to me, it honestly looks like a manufacturing issue. It either came to me like that and I never really considered it an issue, I mean man I have received records sealed in much, much worse shape. Or the glue that holds the cover together came lose over the last couple years as maybe they didnt use enough. It does not look like damage i could have possibly incurred. It could be the paper used in the cover. I have seen a similar waviness develop on some of the older PJ posters over the years.
So anyway, yes the cover is not perfect. I sold the record to the buyer for $100 + shipping. This was lower than my asking price on a record I believe was already priced very fairly. After seeing the issue. I immediately offered a $10 discount. He refused and wanted a full refund. Fine I refunded the $100. He then wanted his original shipping refunded. I didnt quite agree with this as I felt we should be able to work out some kind of acceptable compromise but fine whatever I sent the $24 shipping back as well. Now he also wants return shipping. At this point I feel I am taking a huge loss on what I personally see as a very small issue. I paid $70.20 for this new from 10 club. I said look I will make the discount $20. At that point I am not really making any money on the record, he gets to keep it and at least I dont lose money this deal. He says he says he wants a $35 refund. That is not a compromise in my book. That’s a massive discount on a minor issue.
He did offer to hold the record and have it shipped from his house if and when i find another seller which at this point appears to be my best option but it never should have gotten this far. I will also note that after buying this he bought 2 more of this same vault sealed for a little cheaper than he bought this one opened, so now he sees my price as too high which is why I believe he is refusing my discount offers. That really raises a lot of questions about this whole thing in my mind.
So that is my side of the story. Again I really did not want to post this but felt the way this was brought to light might make potential buyers shy away from buying any of my other records as they might think I was doing something shady here, and there is nothing further from the truth. Going forward I will be doing extra diligence on these vaults and sending pics to buyers before they go out to make sure there are no more issues. I always provide pics when asked, which was not the situation in this case FYI, but will be sending pics either way.
$24? Was this an international sale? I stay away from int'l. Too many problems, variables. If it ends up costing $50 to ship and return, I'd try to find an agreeable prices for the record so it stays put. That type of shipping makes the whole transaction negative otherwise.
$24 was cheapest lower 48 shipping. Shipping costs are nuts right now. Sent a record to Canada it was $46 and Ireland was like $62.
Media mail, my friend. It would not cost more than $4 to ship that within the US.
Media is the way to go. Except at my local PO it won’t let you add insurance at the kiosk so you have to wait in the huge line. Even then, half the time the dude at the counter says I can’t insure it and the other half they do. And a good chunk of the time I get dirty looks when I ask to ship media. It’s all very odd.
Go to ship station or pirate ship and you can print at home and add insurance... easy.
It really is caveat emptor with second hand records. This is a potential learning opportunity for all. I will request an accurate grade on the media and sleeve for any vinyl I purchase from Lost Dogs going forward and some photos.
Someday I may sell some as well. I will be sure to be very accurate. Technically, any record played (even once) is VG+. Even a sealed record cannot technically be graded mint… how do you know?
It really is caveat emptor with second hand records. This is a potential learning opportunity for all. I will request an accurate grade on the media and sleeve for any vinyl I purchase from Lost Dogs going forward and some photos.
Someday I may sell some as well. I will be sure to be very accurate. Technically, any record played (even once) is VG+. Even a sealed record cannot technically be graded mint… how do you know?
Interesting. I don’t understand why being played once devalues it so much. If I was intending to listen to a record I’d probably prefer it has been played a few times over a sealed one given the number of pressing issues, especially with the vault. On my vault 10, the side with Moline, sounded pretty muffled for about half of it right out of the box. Wouldn’t know if it had never been played.
It really is caveat emptor with second hand records. This is a potential learning opportunity for all. I will request an accurate grade on the media and sleeve for any vinyl I purchase from Lost Dogs going forward and some photos.
Someday I may sell some as well. I will be sure to be very accurate. Technically, any record played (even once) is VG+. Even a sealed record cannot technically be graded mint… how do you know?
Interesting. I don’t understand why being played once devalues it so much. If I was intending to listen to a record I’d probably prefer it has been played a few times over a sealed one given the number of pressing issues, especially with the vault. On my vault 10, the side with Moline, sounded pretty muffled for about half of it right out of the box. Wouldn’t know if it had never been played.
I agree. The devaluation guide seems old, like from before the real vinyl boom. OOP records V+ don't knock down the value at that level. In fact, some people like buying open NM records.
It really is caveat emptor with second hand records. This is a potential learning opportunity for all. I will request an accurate grade on the media and sleeve for any vinyl I purchase from Lost Dogs going forward and some photos.
Someday I may sell some as well. I will be sure to be very accurate. Technically, any record played (even once) is VG+. Even a sealed record cannot technically be graded mint… how do you know?
Interesting. I don’t understand why being played once devalues it so much. If I was intending to listen to a record I’d probably prefer it has been played a few times over a sealed one given the number of pressing issues, especially with the vault. On my vault 10, the side with Moline, sounded pretty muffled for about half of it right out of the box. Wouldn’t know if it had never been played.
I agree. The devaluation guide seems old, like from before the real vinyl boom. OOP records V+ don't knock down the value at that level. In fact, some people like buying open NM records.
I like buying open records.. but not graded at NM/M- its how you as the consumer want to approach it, you certainly don’t have to. I always err on the conservative side when grading as a seller. Why? Any business will tell you, the best approach is to underpromise and overdeliver. Exceeding expectations is the best way to ensure a happy customer.
Thanks for the feedback everyone! There were some very good suggestions that hopefully will help out this situation or assist someone else in the future. I am going to have the mods close this out. Please close out this thread. @Sea
Comments
Thanks, everybody. The objective of starting this poll was to see what protocol is for shipping fees on items not being delivered as described. Thank you for all the input (maybe not the weasel guy comment 😊, though it did provide a much-needed laugh). Hopefully, this post will help buyers/sellers in the future. Even though I didn't opt to keep the Vault, and even though we had differing views on how the transaction could be best handled, I still want to see the seller get it to the right buyer. And I'd still recommend this seller to anyone who is looking for some vaults.
Hope you're able to find a solution where both parties walk away satisfied
https://support.discogs.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001566193
On my vault 10, the side with Moline, sounded pretty muffled for about half of it right out of the box. Wouldn’t know if it had never been played.
its how you as the consumer want to approach it, you certainly don’t have to. I always err on the conservative side when grading as a seller. Why? Any business will tell you, the best approach is to underpromise and overdeliver. Exceeding expectations is the best way to ensure a happy customer.