Organized robberies in L.A. Hints of societal breakdown?

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Not if I could afford not to. But my point was that’s probably how they justify not reimbursing the innocent.

Who is “they?” 6A guarantees legal representation and plaintiffs in civil cases can ask a judge/jury for legal costs to be paid as part of a settlement or award. POOTWH is asking for a defamation or libel case to be dismissed based on the aggrieved party not being able to pay their legal costs should they lose.

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Not if I could afford not to. But my point was that’s probably how they justify not reimbursing the innocent.

Who is “they?” 6A guarantees legal representation and plaintiffs in civil cases can ask a judge/jury for legal costs to be paid as part of a settlement or award. POOTWH is asking for a defamation or libel case to be dismissed based on the aggrieved party not being able to pay their legal costs should they lose.

They being the government and by extension the people. Don’t know how trump got in this conversation. It was asked if people get reimbursed here if they are acquitted in a criminal trial. My guess was it’s probably not a hot issue due to the fact free council is available if it will be a financial burden. That has nothing to do with civil lawsuits.

And it’s near impossible to win a civil suit if you’re acquitted of a criminal crime or the charges are dropped unless you can prove malice or criminal intent on behalf of the prosecution. Again, exceedingly rare. I brought up POOTWH as it’s a strategy to deter folks from filing a civil suit in the first place. Just another example of how people with deep pockets can avoid justice and the fact that justice in ‘Murica isn’t equal.

I thought you asked if the acquitted were reimbursed in Canada and then said they weren’t in the US because they can get a free defense attorney? Did I misunderstand?

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Not if I could afford not to. But my point was that’s probably how they justify not reimbursing the innocent.

Who is “they?” 6A guarantees legal representation and plaintiffs in civil cases can ask a judge/jury for legal costs to be paid as part of a settlement or award. POOTWH is asking for a defamation or libel case to be dismissed based on the aggrieved party not being able to pay their legal costs should they lose.

They being the government and by extension the people. Don’t know how trump got in this conversation. It was asked if people get reimbursed here if they are acquitted in a criminal trial. My guess was it’s probably not a hot issue due to the fact free council is available if it will be a financial burden. That has nothing to do with civil lawsuits.

And it’s near impossible to win a civil suit if you’re acquitted of a criminal crime or the charges are dropped unless you can prove malice or criminal intent on behalf of the prosecution. Again, exceedingly rare. I brought up POOTWH as it’s a strategy to deter folks from filing a civil suit in the first place. Just another example of how people with deep pockets can avoid justice and the fact that justice in ‘Murica isn’t equal.

I thought you asked if the acquitted were reimbursed in Canada and then said they weren’t in the US because they can get a free defense attorney? Did I misunderstand?

Basically. The way the he asked if we get reimbursed for acquitted crimes sounded to me like thats the way they do it up there. So I asked. And the fact we get free attorneys if it is a financial hardship is probably one reason that isn’t the case. I believe I’ve heard before the majority of felony offenders are with a public defender, so not much motivation to get the process changed for most.

Isnt threatening to counter-sue for legal fees common practice in civil cases? That’s exactly what keeps people from coming up with frivolous lawsuits hoping they just settle.

Yea, that good ol free defense attorney for committing a crime where the conviction rate is north of 80%. I’m sure it factors into the reasoning behind folks committing crimes.

POOTWH is pre-emptively asking for dismissal to avoid being deposed. The trial should move forward and if the litigant loses and can’t pay, bankrupt them or make them pay whatever amount they can afford for the rest of their lives. Clearly the case has merits, knowing what we know of POOTWH and his history.” Justice shouldn’t rely solely on the ability to pay and very often it does.

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Not if I could afford not to. But my point was that’s probably how they justify not reimbursing the innocent.

Who is “they?” 6A guarantees legal representation and plaintiffs in civil cases can ask a judge/jury for legal costs to be paid as part of a settlement or award. POOTWH is asking for a defamation or libel case to be dismissed based on the aggrieved party not being able to pay their legal costs should they lose.

They being the government and by extension the people. Don’t know how trump got in this conversation. It was asked if people get reimbursed here if they are acquitted in a criminal trial. My guess was it’s probably not a hot issue due to the fact free council is available if it will be a financial burden. That has nothing to do with civil lawsuits.

And it’s near impossible to win a civil suit if you’re acquitted of a criminal crime or the charges are dropped unless you can prove malice or criminal intent on behalf of the prosecution. Again, exceedingly rare. I brought up POOTWH as it’s a strategy to deter folks from filing a civil suit in the first place. Just another example of how people with deep pockets can avoid justice and the fact that justice in ‘Murica isn’t equal.

I thought you asked if the acquitted were reimbursed in Canada and then said they weren’t in the US because they can get a free defense attorney? Did I misunderstand?

Basically. The way the he asked if we get reimbursed for acquitted crimes sounded to me like thats the way they do it up there. So I asked. And the fact we get free attorneys if it is a financial hardship is probably one reason that isn’t the case. I believe I’ve heard before the majority of felony offenders are with a public defender, so not much motivation to get the process changed for most.

Isnt threatening to counter-sue for legal fees common practice in civil cases? That’s exactly what keeps people from coming up with frivolous lawsuits hoping they just settle.

Yea, that good ol free defense attorney for committing a crime where the conviction rate is north of 80%. I’m sure it factors into the reasoning behind folks committing crimes.

POOTWH is pre-emptively asking for dismissal to avoid being deposed. The trial should move forward and if the litigant loses and can’t pay, bankrupt them or make them pay whatever amount they can afford for the rest of their lives. Clearly the case has merits, knowing what we know of POOTWH and his history.” Justice shouldn’t rely solely on the ability to pay and very often it does.

I would have guessed it was a lot higher than 80%. If our conviction rate is only 80% I think we should raise the bar on what it takes to go to trial, since a trial alone can be devastating to an individual and family.
Trump is just facing civil lawsuits. That’s different than what this conversation was about. It was asked if individuals who are acquitted of a crime get reimbursed for legal fees. Trump is not (currently) being charged with anything. The standard for civil suits is much lower. It’s common practice to request legal fees and that is there to deter frivolous lawsuits. Everyone does it, not just Trump. Trump has nothing to do with this thread or the conversation, not sure why it keeps circling back to him.

Ive only ever been involved in 1 civil lawsuit. About 10 years ago when I bought my house. Shortly after moving in the sewer clogged and I called a plumber. By dumb luck it was the same plumber the seller used. He told me my sewer pipe was broken a s the seller refused to fix it but wanted to pump out the water so it would be clear long enough to sell. He admitted all that to the plumber. The seller obviously didn’t disclose that to me as is required by law. For 2 years he refused to respond to any requests, had a fake address on file, etc. Finally after 2 years when we got everything together and he could no longer stall he threatened me with 10k of legal fees if I moved forward. Well that’s what I was suing for. 2 years later my witness, the plumber, wasn’t as fired up and as sure of himself as he was when it happened. So instead of being out another 10k I just dropped it. It’s very standard to ask for legal fees, not just among the rich.

Free criminal defense is enshrined in the 6A. And yes, not only the rich get screwed by the "process" and "blind or equal justice."

According to a study by the U.S. Department of Justice, 76% of defendants with a private attorney were convicted, compared to 88% of defendants with a public attorney. 

The Public Defense Injustice (arcgis.com)

I used POOTWH as an example of suing for court costs to avoid accountability or an attempt at accountability. Because it was news a few weeks back. That's why I brought it up. I also realize we're discussing criminal and I was pointing out that "they," the government, don't reimburse for acquittal and its not because you get free legal defense. You can bring a civil suit if wrongly convicted or falsely accused of a crime and dragged through the process. However, you have limited chance of success of being compensated.

tempo_n_groove said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Society is not breaking down…crime has always existed…and always will.

Yeah crime's always existed but the reaction to it has changed...often for partisan reasons. From conservatives backing the January 6th rioters (complete with a Tucker Carlson documentary called "Patriot Purge") to liberals backing last summer's BLM rioters (complete with soon-to-be VP Kamala Harris promoting a bail fund for those arrested). 

If your Vice President cared  about justice then the government would have to reimburse all legal fees upon an acquittal…people not getting good lawyers likely lead to a lot of miscarriages of justice.  

I live in liberal Canada where our liberal government is reducing sentences including sentences for gun crime…gotta get the votes.

a town I lived in for 20 years had a triple homicide in the early 90s…an 18 year killed a young fellow and this young fellows grandparents…he was convicted of 1st degree murder x3…he is out on parole.

one of the most famous Canadian murderers, Paul Bernardo and his wife at the time raped and killed 3 teenagers, she’s free, lives in Quebec and he’s had 2 parole hearings, so he gets to traumatize the families every 2 fucking years when his parole hearing comes due.  One of the teenagers raped and murdered was the sister of Karla Homolka (his wife)…yup she raped and murdered her own sister and only got 12 years.  

And on and on…it’s bullshit.  If you are not removing peoples freedoms for committing crimes then you remove the deterrent.

and I could go on and on…

guns flow in freely from the US…what are the minions who man those border booths biggest concern is these days…making sure they punish Canadians returning from day trips who don’t use some dumbass government app to re-enter our country fully vaccinated…

Does Canada reimburse legal fees if you’re found not guilty?
I guess an easy way to get out of it here is you’re provided a lawyer for free if needed.

You'd trust your freedom to a public defender?

Not if I could afford not to. But my point was that’s probably how they justify not reimbursing the innocent.

Who is “they?” 6A guarantees legal representation and plaintiffs in civil cases can ask a judge/jury for legal costs to be paid as part of a settlement or award. POOTWH is asking for a defamation or libel case to be dismissed based on the aggrieved party not being able to pay their legal costs should they lose.

They being the government and by extension the people. Don’t know how trump got in this conversation. It was asked if people get reimbursed here if they are acquitted in a criminal trial. My guess was it’s probably not a hot issue due to the fact free council is available if it will be a financial burden. That has nothing to do with civil lawsuits.

And it’s near impossible to win a civil suit if you’re acquitted of a criminal crime or the charges are dropped unless you can prove malice or criminal intent on behalf of the prosecution. Again, exceedingly rare. I brought up POOTWH as it’s a strategy to deter folks from filing a civil suit in the first place. Just another example of how people with deep pockets can avoid justice and the fact that justice in ‘Murica isn’t equal.

I thought you asked if the acquitted were reimbursed in Canada and then said they weren’t in the US because they can get a free defense attorney? Did I misunderstand?

Basically. The way the he asked if we get reimbursed for acquitted crimes sounded to me like thats the way they do it up there. So I asked. And the fact we get free attorneys if it is a financial hardship is probably one reason that isn’t the case. I believe I’ve heard before the majority of felony offenders are with a public defender, so not much motivation to get the process changed for most.

Isnt threatening to counter-sue for legal fees common practice in civil cases? That’s exactly what keeps people from coming up with frivolous lawsuits hoping they just settle.

Yea, that good ol free defense attorney for committing a crime where the conviction rate is north of 80%. I’m sure it factors into the reasoning behind folks committing crimes.

POOTWH is pre-emptively asking for dismissal to avoid being deposed. The trial should move forward and if the litigant loses and can’t pay, bankrupt them or make them pay whatever amount they can afford for the rest of their lives. Clearly the case has merits, knowing what we know of POOTWH and his history.” Justice shouldn’t rely solely on the ability to pay and very often it does.

I would have guessed it was a lot higher than 80%. If our conviction rate is only 80% I think we should raise the bar on what it takes to go to trial, since a trial alone can be devastating to an individual and family.
Trump is just facing civil lawsuits. That’s different than what this conversation was about. It was asked if individuals who are acquitted of a crime get reimbursed for legal fees. Trump is not (currently) being charged with anything. The standard for civil suits is much lower. It’s common practice to request legal fees and that is there to deter frivolous lawsuits. Everyone does it, not just Trump. Trump has nothing to do with this thread or the conversation, not sure why it keeps circling back to him.

Ive only ever been involved in 1 civil lawsuit. About 10 years ago when I bought my house. Shortly after moving in the sewer clogged and I called a plumber. By dumb luck it was the same plumber the seller used. He told me my sewer pipe was broken a s the seller refused to fix it but wanted to pump out the water so it would be clear long enough to sell. He admitted all that to the plumber. The seller obviously didn’t disclose that to me as is required by law. For 2 years he refused to respond to any requests, had a fake address on file, etc. Finally after 2 years when we got everything together and he could no longer stall he threatened me with 10k of legal fees if I moved forward. Well that’s what I was suing for. 2 years later my witness, the plumber, wasn’t as fired up and as sure of himself as he was when it happened. So instead of being out another 10k I just dropped it. It’s very standard to ask for legal fees, not just among the rich.

Free criminal defense is enshrined in the 6A. And yes, not only the rich get screwed by the "process" and "blind or equal justice."

According to a study by the U.S. Department of Justice, 76% of defendants with a private attorney were convicted, compared to 88% of defendants with a public attorney. 

The Public Defense Injustice (arcgis.com)

I used POOTWH as an example of suing for court costs to avoid accountability or an attempt at accountability. Because it was news a few weeks back. That's why I brought it up. I also realize we're discussing criminal and I was pointing out that "they," the government, don't reimburse for acquittal and its not because you get free legal defense. You can bring a civil suit if wrongly convicted or falsely accused of a crime and dragged through the process. However, you have limited chance of success of being compensated.

12% difference makes me think that paying for a lawyer isn't all that it's cracked up to be and that public defenders aren't good at all...