Organized robberies in L.A. Hints of societal breakdown?

brianlux · November 2021

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:

Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.

Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.

Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

Parksy · November 2021

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

I was just going to comment... there is a big difference between theft and robbery. A lot of people I know think they are the same thing.

brianlux · November 2021

Parksy said:

show previous quotes

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

I was just going to comment... there is a big difference between theft and robbery. A lot of people I know think they are the same thing.

OK, so we're good on these definitions?

oftenreading · November 2021

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

I agree Brian, definitions are important. In Canada robbery is sometimes defined as being theft with confrontation, to highlight that in an act of robbery you directly confront the victim and take their property from them, because obviously this increases the impact on the victim due to fear of violence.

brianlux · November 2021

oftenreading said:

show previous quotes

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

I agree Brian, definitions are important. In Canada robbery is sometimes defined as being theft with confrontation, to highlight that in an act of robbery you directly confront the victim and take their property from them, because obviously this increases the impact on the victim due to fear of violence.

Interesting, thanks.

So some questioning come to mind to me regarding all this. This sense I get is that this is kind of a new "trend" (for lack of a better word) in crime, but we also live in a world of sensationalist news and click bate. I'm really hoping these are just isolated incidents, and not actual trends, but with news being so slanted these days, it's often hard to know for certain.
I sometime wonder if I have read too much James Howard Kunstler (who I was a big fan of when he a Democrat and was writing about peak oil, the end of suburbia, and failing societies rather than, for GOD knows what reason, becoming an anti-Democrat crusader), and other such literature. I am both fascinated by and at the same time very wary of the possibility of societal collapse. Yet, these things do happen!

HughFreakingDillon · November 2021

I don't see this as a societal collapse.

brianlux · November 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't see this as a societal collapse.

I hope not... but not even a precursor? (Damn, that's not the right word... you know, a foreboding of sorts)?

HughFreakingDillon · November 2021

brianlux said:

show previous quotes

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't see this as a societal collapse.

I hope not... but not even a precursor? (Damn, that's not the right word... you know, a foreboding of sorts)?

I don't think so. I think sometimes groups or individuals come up with crazy ideas to circumvent societal norms, until society catches up to deal with it. If these issues were all over the country, or even all over the world, I might get concerned. but these are so few and far between for the most part, I see it getting snuffed out pretty quick.

I think right now there's an interest in people taking the power back, and there's always going to be a segment of those people that try doing that through illegal or nefarious means for a short term goal. But those don't last.

oftenreading · November 2021

HughFreakingDillon · November 2021

LOL

mickeyrat · November 2021

so theres a thing here in columbus. groups of teens carjacking. other petty property crimes.

brianlux · November 2021

oftenreading said:

I love it!

mace1229 · November 2021

HughFreakingDillon said:

show previous quotes

oftenreading said:

nicknyr15 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

It will be the norm as long as it’s minimized and allowed to happen. We’re not even supposed to cal it looting because that has too much of a negative connotation. And yet they can loot freely and as already pointed out, almost no consequence even if caught.

No, that's flat out wrong. It's incorrect to call it looting because it isn't looting, it's robbery. Looting is a different thing.

Per Wikipedia: Looting is the act of stealing, or the taking of goods by force, typically in the midst of a military, political, or other social crisis, such as war,[1] natural disasters (where law and civil enforcement are temporarily ineffective),[2] or rioting.[3]

How is this not looting? That’s exactly what it is, but we’re not supposed to call it that.

Because the sort of robbery you are talking about is not in the midst of a military, political or social crisis such as war or natural disaster. It's just robbery. That seems like a pretty simple distinction.

Not picking you out because this has been a discussion, but there seems to be more grievance with the term than the incredible amount of crime that’s taking place over there.

Not sure what I'm supposed to say about the level of crime. I prefer accurate use of terms to avoid confusion in discussion, so that's why I commented on this.

this stems from the "Cancelled!" thread where mace posted an article where one person in that article claimed that looting was a racist term only used when black people are the criminals.

most of the article made sense, in that it made the distinction, as you did, between looting (opportunistic stealing during a crisis) and robbery (planned stealing of goods).

??? I haven’t even opened that thread in at least 2 weeks, probably been months since I even posted there.

HughFreakingDillon · November 2021

mace1229 said:

show previous quotes

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

nicknyr15 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

It will be the norm as long as it’s minimized and allowed to happen. We’re not even supposed to cal it looting because that has too much of a negative connotation. And yet they can loot freely and as already pointed out, almost no consequence even if caught.

No, that's flat out wrong. It's incorrect to call it looting because it isn't looting, it's robbery. Looting is a different thing.

Per Wikipedia: Looting is the act of stealing, or the taking of goods by force, typically in the midst of a military, political, or other social crisis, such as war,[1] natural disasters (where law and civil enforcement are temporarily ineffective),[2] or rioting.[3]

How is this not looting? That’s exactly what it is, but we’re not supposed to call it that.

Because the sort of robbery you are talking about is not in the midst of a military, political or social crisis such as war or natural disaster. It's just robbery. That seems like a pretty simple distinction.

Not picking you out because this has been a discussion, but there seems to be more grievance with the term than the incredible amount of crime that’s taking place over there.

Not sure what I'm supposed to say about the level of crime. I prefer accurate use of terms to avoid confusion in discussion, so that's why I commented on this.

this stems from the "Cancelled!" thread where mace posted an article where one person in that article claimed that looting was a racist term only used when black people are the criminals.

most of the article made sense, in that it made the distinction, as you did, between looting (opportunistic stealing during a crisis) and robbery (planned stealing of goods).

??? I haven’t even opened that thread in at least 2 weeks, probably been months since I even posted there.

my apologies if I mixed you up with another poster. My memory isn't always the best.

edit: it was nicknyr. sorry about that mace.

mace1229 · November 2021

No worries, I was just really confused.

mace1229 · November 2021

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

Have there been other reported cases of these massive smash and grabs before last week? If so, then that would probably change my mind, but I haven’t heard of any.

in my opinion this started during the 2020 riots and set a precedent in what is acceptable. Looting was taking place during several of the riots. I remember video of people walking out of the Nike store in daylight just feet away from police who just stood there and watched.

Fast forward 18 months and it looks connected to me. Too big of a coincidence that it happens the day the verdict comes out (unless like I said before this has been happening). Instead of setting buildings on fire that can eventually put you in jail, why not just steal thousands of dollars of goods instead? If the looting of summer 2020 didn’t happen I don’t see these smash n grabs happening as the new form of protest. Therefore I see it connected to the riots and why I justify calling it looting.

Thats my take on it and I’m not too concerned if you share my opinion or not based on the definition. Not that I’m not interested in others’ opinions, but more as I see this as an insignificant detail in everything going on right now. You can disagree it’s connected and I will respect that opinion.

But to answer your question it has the potential be to part of a societal breakdown if it’s allowed to continue. Not even trying to stop it before I could only imagine encourages it. If they use any video to make arrests and prosecute these incidents then I could see it stopping. I heard they made 2 arrests, which isn’t a lot for the amount of people involved, but hopefully that means they are investigating it and will lead to more.

brianlux · November 2021

mace1229 said:

show previous quotes

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

Have there been other reported cases of these massive smash and grabs before last week? If so, then that would probably change my mind, but I haven’t heard of any.

in my opinion this started during the 2020 riots and set a precedent in what is acceptable. Looting was taking place during several of the riots. I remember video of people walking out of the Nike store in daylight just feet away from police who just stood there and watched.
Fast forward 18 months and it looks connected to me. Too big of a coincidence that it happens the day the verdict comes out (unless like I said before this has been happening). Instead of setting buildings on fire that can eventually put you in jail, why not just steal thousands of dollars of goods instead? If the looting of summer 2020 didn’t happen I don’t see these smash n grabs happening as the new form of protest. Therefore I see it connected to the riots and why I justify calling it looting.

Thats my take on it and I’m not too concerned if you share my opinion or not based on the definition. Not that I’m not interested in others’ opinions, but more as I see this as an insignificant detail in everything going on right now. You can disagree it’s connected and I will respect that opinion.

But to answer your question it has the potential be to part of a societal breakdown if it’s allowed to continue. Not even trying to stop it before I could only imagine encourages it. If they use any video to make arrests and prosecute these incidents then I could see it stopping. I heard they made 2 arrests, which isn’t a lot for the amount of people involved, but hopefully that means they are investigating it and will lead to more.

It seems to be a fairly recent thing but not specific to L.A. The following article mentions other "smash and grab" more than one incident in San Francisco (as Hedonist mentioned), Hayward and Walnut Creek in the East Bay Area, and a Louis Vuittan store in Chicago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/23/us/smash-and-grab-thefts-explainer-cec/index.html

There is nothing new about looting occurring during riots (that goes back several decades), and these incidents are thefts and robberies, so I would be hesitant to point to rioting as a cause.

The article link above cites various reasons including lack of law enforcement resources, decriminalization of lower level crimes, organized crime rings hiring low-level criminals to carry out the theft, increased crime during holidays (which would indicate a more temporary situation), ease of selling stolen items on line-line sites and flee markets (eBay, for example, has sometimes been referred to as the biggest fencing operation in the world).

The article does not mention rioting and rules out pandemic as a likely cause.

mace1229 · November 2021

brianlux said:

show previous quotes

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

Have there been other reported cases of these massive smash and grabs before last week? If so, then that would probably change my mind, but I haven’t heard of any.

in my opinion this started during the 2020 riots and set a precedent in what is acceptable. Looting was taking place during several of the riots. I remember video of people walking out of the Nike store in daylight just feet away from police who just stood there and watched.
Fast forward 18 months and it looks connected to me. Too big of a coincidence that it happens the day the verdict comes out (unless like I said before this has been happening). Instead of setting buildings on fire that can eventually put you in jail, why not just steal thousands of dollars of goods instead? If the looting of summer 2020 didn’t happen I don’t see these smash n grabs happening as the new form of protest. Therefore I see it connected to the riots and why I justify calling it looting.

Thats my take on it and I’m not too concerned if you share my opinion or not based on the definition. Not that I’m not interested in others’ opinions, but more as I see this as an insignificant detail in everything going on right now. You can disagree it’s connected and I will respect that opinion.

But to answer your question it has the potential be to part of a societal breakdown if it’s allowed to continue. Not even trying to stop it before I could only imagine encourages it. If they use any video to make arrests and prosecute these incidents then I could see it stopping. I heard they made 2 arrests, which isn’t a lot for the amount of people involved, but hopefully that means they are investigating it and will lead to more.

It seems to be a fairly recent thing but not specific to L.A. The following article mentions other "smash and grab" more than one incident in San Francisco (as Hedonist mentioned), Hayward and Walnut Creek in the East Bay Area, and a Louis Vuittan store in Chicago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/23/us/smash-and-grab-thefts-explainer-cec/index.html

There is nothing new about looting occurring during riots (that goes back several decades), and these incidents are thefts and robberies, so I would be hesitant to point to rioting as a cause.

The article link above cites various reasons including lack of law enforcement resources, decriminalization of lower level crimes, organized crime rings hiring low-level criminals to carry out the theft, increased crime during holidays (which would indicate a more temporary situation), ease of selling stolen items on line-line sites and flee markets (eBay, for example, has sometimes been referred to as the biggest fencing operation in the world).

The article does not mention rioting and rules out pandemic as a likely cause.

This may be a first for the AMT, but I’ll admit I think I changed my mind on this. The first ones Friday night could still be under the guise of a protest for the verdict (I’ve always believed the looting was more taking advantage of the situation than making your voice heard, and that would be no different for those on Friday).
But these seemed more organized, using vehicles to block streets and a flash mob that takes some planning. I still think the timing is too much of a coincidence. Possibly they thought it’d be easier to get away with it if there were protests going on at the same time or something.
As long as these are successful with minimal or no consequences, I’d predict it gets worse and not better. It sounds like it’s still a low priority, so I expect to see more cases.

brianlux · November 2021

mace1229 said:

show previous quotes

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I think we need to agree on some definitions here. Can we agree on these?:
Looting, the act of looting, the act of stealing during a general disturbance.
Robbery: The act of taking someone's property without the owner's consent, but it has some elements that theft doesn't require. Robbery involves taking property from a person and using force, or the threat of force, to do it.
Theft: the act of taking someone else's property without the owner's consent and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use or possession.

If we can agree on those definitions, then the incidents involved in the article linked at the beginning of this thread involve both theft and robbery, not looting. Those incidents did not involve looting during protests. In other words, this is not another Black Lives Matter, or George Floyd thread. It's about what appears to be an increase in crimes that are not involved in social unrest or protesting. It revolves around the concern I have regarding what seems to me to be a collapse of morals among certain groups of people who commit these acts without regard to their victims. This is why I question whether this all might be a sort of warning sign or precursory indication of some form of social breakdown.

Have there been other reported cases of these massive smash and grabs before last week? If so, then that would probably change my mind, but I haven’t heard of any.

in my opinion this started during the 2020 riots and set a precedent in what is acceptable. Looting was taking place during several of the riots. I remember video of people walking out of the Nike store in daylight just feet away from police who just stood there and watched.
Fast forward 18 months and it looks connected to me. Too big of a coincidence that it happens the day the verdict comes out (unless like I said before this has been happening). Instead of setting buildings on fire that can eventually put you in jail, why not just steal thousands of dollars of goods instead? If the looting of summer 2020 didn’t happen I don’t see these smash n grabs happening as the new form of protest. Therefore I see it connected to the riots and why I justify calling it looting.

Thats my take on it and I’m not too concerned if you share my opinion or not based on the definition. Not that I’m not interested in others’ opinions, but more as I see this as an insignificant detail in everything going on right now. You can disagree it’s connected and I will respect that opinion.

But to answer your question it has the potential be to part of a societal breakdown if it’s allowed to continue. Not even trying to stop it before I could only imagine encourages it. If they use any video to make arrests and prosecute these incidents then I could see it stopping. I heard they made 2 arrests, which isn’t a lot for the amount of people involved, but hopefully that means they are investigating it and will lead to more.

It seems to be a fairly recent thing but not specific to L.A. The following article mentions other "smash and grab" more than one incident in San Francisco (as Hedonist mentioned), Hayward and Walnut Creek in the East Bay Area, and a Louis Vuittan store in Chicago.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/23/us/smash-and-grab-thefts-explainer-cec/index.html

There is nothing new about looting occurring during riots (that goes back several decades), and these incidents are thefts and robberies, so I would be hesitant to point to rioting as a cause.

The article link above cites various reasons including lack of law enforcement resources, decriminalization of lower level crimes, organized crime rings hiring low-level criminals to carry out the theft, increased crime during holidays (which would indicate a more temporary situation), ease of selling stolen items on line-line sites and flee markets (eBay, for example, has sometimes been referred to as the biggest fencing operation in the world).

The article does not mention rioting and rules out pandemic as a likely cause.

This may be a first for the AMT, but I’ll admit I think I changed my mind on this. The first ones Friday night could still be under the guise of a protest for the verdict (I’ve always believed the looting was more taking advantage of the situation than making your voice heard, and that would be no different for those on Friday).
But these seemed more organized, using vehicles to block streets and a flash mob that takes some planning. I still think the timing is too much of a coincidence. Possibly they thought it’d be easier to get away with it if there were protests going on at the same time or something.
As long as these are successful with minimal or no consequences, I’d predict it gets worse and not better. It sounds like it’s still a low priority, so I expect to see more cases.

I really hope this kind of thing doesn't spread. One encouraging note is that I'm not seeing a lot of crime reported this Black Friday. Reports around the Bay Area at least seem to indicate things were fairly normal. Hope it stays that way!

F Me In The Brain · November 2021

The debate on looting as a term cracks me up - specifically that Wikipedia is the quoted source.
Opinion supported by other opinions.

Organized robberies in L.A. Hints of societal breakdown?

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