How easily can you admire a product of creativity despite the flaws of the one who created it?

brianlux
brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
in All Encompassing Trip
I'm stealing the general idea here from another forum but thought it would be interesting to poll something similar here. 

Is it possible for you to admire a piece of music, art, literature, or other product of creativity despite the flaws of the person who created it?  To what extent?

I general do find it possible to admire a work of creativity even when I do not admire the person who created it.  There are limits for me, but only in very severe cases.  If I perceive a work of art, music, or literature as excellent, I am able to admire it even if I find great fault in the one who created it.

Your take?

(Poll is anonymous.)
"It's a sad and beautiful world"
-Roberto Benigni

How easily can you admire a product of creativity despite the flaws of the one who created it? 17 votes

Yes, always.
5% 1 vote
In most cases, yes.
47% 8 votes
Only sometimes.
35% 6 votes
Seldom.
11% 2 votes
Never.
0% 0 votes
«1

Comments

  • lastexitlondon
    lastexitlondon Posts: 14,896
    Michael Jackson. 
    Great music . Great live but I dislike his habits


    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,472
    lastexitlondon said:
    Michael Jackson. 
    Great music . Great live but I dislike his habits
    Chose to not pick up some of his albums on vinyl a few months ago. 

    Do not listen to him (anymore). 

    It feels uneasy. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Fifthelement
    Fifthelement Lotusland Posts: 6,965
    For me, it depends on whether or not I am able to separate the art from the artist.  For example, a lot of the classical music that I like, or old movies that I watch, the artists were often racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. To be fair, most of the population publicly exhibited those traits for long periods of human history.  Perhaps I real life they weren’t any of those things (Is it wrong, or was it survival?) Thankfully, if far too slowly, attitudes are evolving in many parts of the world.

    However, if by those standards that I mentioned above, I were to preclude taking any enjoyment from the art / artists of the past, I would be culturally impoverished right now.  We all would be.  That being said, there are lines for me.  I will not pay or give support to artists who exhibit those negative, harmful behaviours currently. on a positive note, I know that I do watch / listen more critically.  Things that I didn’t really notice, or that I accepted because that’s the way things were, can really anger me now and detract from my enjoyment.

    So I guess, after all that, it depends on the offence and the harm done. 
    "What the CANUCK happened?!? - Esquimalt Barber Shop
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,472
    edited January 2021
    The difference for me, between lets say music artists and other creative people, like  actors... even though the "Damn, let's watch something with Kevin Spacey!" mood doesn't strike me anymore... is that I am watching a fictional character played by an asshole (e.g. John Wayne). But putting on a e.g. Ryan Adams album, I am listening to and supporting him on "personal" level.

    That is why I can put on Leonard Cohens Death of a Ladies man sadly produced by that rapist dude who died right now... eh.. Phil Spector in that it is Leonard Cohen and his words and stories I am listening to and for. It is not Phil Spector's album.

    So for me, there is a difference in separating the artist and the art - when it comes to Michael Jackson versus whatever asshole who plays a part in a film.

    But I am not rushing to watch Woody Allen movies nowadays - with it being very much his personal creative art - from scriptwriting to having directors cut.

    While, having e.g. a director who is an asshole working for a Marvel movie for a paycheck would not make it as hard to put on that movie.

    But I guess for the "shut up and just sing" crowd who doesn't want their artists to say any political or I guess... show any kind of personality... they don't care as long as they get to hear the hits (With words I assume they do not care about, as long as the song has a great hook).

    SHUT UP AND JUST PLAY BORN IN THE USA BRUCE - I LOVE IT WHEN IT POPS UP ON MY PLAYLIST WITH TED NUGENT AND KID ROCK SONGS!
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • dankind
    dankind Posts: 20,841
    I don’t think I’ve bought a single Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder item since he stepped off the EasyJet.

    That hypocrisy just doesn’t sit well with me. Pearl Jam: protecting the planet, one private jet at a time.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,812
    Michael Jackson already mentioned by name -- I would not knowingly support anything to do with that guy.  Lost count of how many arguments I have had about this over the years -- and took the same position when he was alive.

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,385
    I love reading Hunter S Thompson Material.  His writing is frantic and exciting.

    Hunter S the person is a mental patient whom probably should have been heavily medicated professionally.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Too early to properly formulate an answer right now, so...

    Polanski. Fuck him. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    I found this to be a tough question.  I know for a fact that there are musicians, artists, and writers who's work I highly admire but are people who have done some pretty awful things.  But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   Who among us has never done a single thing in our lives such that we are blameless?   So for me, if the artist is not a wholey despicable person, I can forgive certain transgressions and appreciate their work.  That would include a HUGE number of rock and roll artists.  A lot of them have done some really shitty things, but they are not necessarily wholly despicable people.

    But, of course, there are instances of severe transgression.  If I thought Mein Kampf was a great work of literature (I don't know, I haven't read it), I would still find it impossible to regard that work because of the terrible person who wrote it.  I think I would have to discount the work of people who committed atrocious acts at that level. 

    The most difficult cases (and I'm not going to name the obvious because I'm not interested in arguing over a particular case) involve a work of art that was created by one person but enhanced by another.  For example, a song sung by a wonderful singer and yet produced by someone you find despicable.  Do you disregard the song because of the horrible producer, or love it because it is a great vocal by a decent person?  I would chose the latter. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,472
    brianlux said:
    But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   
    It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    brianlux said:
    But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   
    It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

    Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,472
    brianlux said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    brianlux said:
    But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   
    It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

    Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???
    In the sense that Writer/Director Wes Craven had a memory from being a child of looking out from his bedroom window in the night and seeing an old man in a hat and trenchcoat standing outside under a lamp post looking up at him.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    brianlux said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    brianlux said:
    But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   
    It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

    Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???
    In the sense that Writer/Director Wes Craven had a memory from being a child of looking out from his bedroom window in the night and seeing an old man in a hat and trenchcoat standing outside under a lamp post looking up at him.

    Interesting. 

    I'm not at all a fan of slasher type artistry.  Enough of that exists in the real world.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    We all judge, and we’re all judged.

    I don’t know what lies in a stranger’s heart any more than they do mine, and what flies for me won’t for another (and vice versa). Goes with my own level of (dis)comfort toward the act itself.

    Not losing any sleep over it, that’s for sure.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,428
    Cosby.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    mickeyrat said:
    Cosby.....

    Augh... makes me sick.  I used to love that guy.  Can't do it now.  No way.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 17,889
    Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • JeBurkhardt
    JeBurkhardt Posts: 5,324
    Poncier said:
    Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?
    Nope. That guy always gave off a weird vibe, but not enough to make me think he was completely delusional. 
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 17,889
    JeBurkhardt said:
    Poncier said:
    Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?
    Nope. That guy always gave off a weird vibe, but not enough to make me think he was completely delusional. 
    Yeah, just thought he was a basic shill until he appeared at one of Trump's Covid dog and pony shows last spring and said that together they would "pray the virus away". Then I realized what a loon he was.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • PureandEasy
    PureandEasy Posts: 5,818

    I had a hard time with this question as well. 

    I can think of one example where my opinion changed on an artist after seeing them live.  It’s something I can’t help, any new music by this artist just doesn’t really appeal to me anymore because I had that one experience that did not sit well with me.

    The artist/band was the Foo Fighters.  Dave Grohl was so CRUDE, totally insulting to women, telling very graphic stories about women; basically indicating their purpose in life is to satisfy men.    

    I went to that show with two males, and we all walked out of there shocked at what we witnessed.  I was blown away that this was his front man persona.  


    Don't come closer or I'll have to go

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