How easily can you admire a product of creativity despite the flaws of the one who created it?

brianlux

I'm stealing the general idea here from another forum but thought it would be interesting to poll something similar here. 

Is it possible for you to admire a piece of music, art, literature, or other product of creativity despite the flaws of the person who created it?  To what extent?

I general do find it possible to admire a work of creativity even when I do not admire the person who created it.  There are limits for me, but only in very severe cases.  If I perceive a work of art, music, or literature as excellent, I am able to admire it even if I find great fault in the one who created it.

Your take?

(Poll is anonymous.)

lastexitlondon

Michael Jackson. 
Great music . Great live but I dislike his habits

Spiritual_Chaos

lastexitlondon said:

Michael Jackson. 
Great music . Great live but I dislike his habits

Chose to not pick up some of his albums on vinyl a few months ago. 

Do not listen to him (anymore). 

It feels uneasy. 

Fifthelement

For me, it depends on whether or not I am able to separate the art from the artist.  For example, a lot of the classical music that I like, or old movies that I watch, the artists were often racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. To be fair, most of the population publicly exhibited those traits for long periods of human history.  Perhaps I real life they weren’t any of those things (Is it wrong, or was it survival?) Thankfully, if far too slowly, attitudes are evolving in many parts of the world.

However, if by those standards that I mentioned above, I were to preclude taking any enjoyment from the art / artists of the past, I would be culturally impoverished right now.  We all would be.  That being said, there are lines for me.  I will not pay or give support to artists who exhibit those negative, harmful behaviours currently. on a positive note, I know that I do watch / listen more critically.  Things that I didn’t really notice, or that I accepted because that’s the way things were, can really anger me now and detract from my enjoyment.

So I guess, after all that, it depends on the offence and the harm done. 

Spiritual_Chaos

The difference for me, between lets say music artists and other creative people, like  actors... even though the "Damn, let's watch something with Kevin Spacey!" mood doesn't strike me anymore... is that I am watching a fictional character played by an asshole (e.g. John Wayne). But putting on a e.g. Ryan Adams album, I am listening to and supporting him on "personal" level.

That is why I can put on Leonard Cohens Death of a Ladies man sadly produced by that rapist dude who died right now... eh.. Phil Spector in that it is Leonard Cohen and his words and stories I am listening to and for. It is not Phil Spector's album.

So for me, there is a difference in separating the artist and the art - when it comes to Michael Jackson versus whatever asshole who plays a part in a film.

But I am not rushing to watch Woody Allen movies nowadays - with it being very much his personal creative art - from scriptwriting to having directors cut.

While, having e.g. a director who is an asshole working for a Marvel movie for a paycheck would not make it as hard to put on that movie.

But I guess for the "shut up and just sing" crowd who doesn't want their artists to say any political or I guess... show any kind of personality... they don't care as long as they get to hear the hits (With words I assume they do not care about, as long as the song has a great hook).

SHUT UP AND JUST PLAY BORN IN THE USA BRUCE - I LOVE IT WHEN IT POPS UP ON MY PLAYLIST WITH TED NUGENT AND KID ROCK SONGS!

dankind

I don’t think I’ve bought a single Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder item since he stepped off the EasyJet.

That hypocrisy just doesn’t sit well with me. Pearl Jam: protecting the planet, one private jet at a time.

F Me In The Brain

Michael Jackson already mentioned by name -- I would not knowingly support anything to do with that guy.  Lost count of how many arguments I have had about this over the years -- and took the same position when he was alive.

tempo_n_groove

I love reading Hunter S Thompson Material.  His writing is frantic and exciting.

Hunter S the person is a mental patient whom probably should have been heavily medicated professionally.

hedonist

Too early to properly formulate an answer right now, so...

Polanski. Fuck him. 

brianlux

I found this to be a tough question.  I know for a fact that there are musicians, artists, and writers who's work I highly admire but are people who have done some pretty awful things.  But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   Who among us has never done a single thing in our lives such that we are blameless?   So for me, if the artist is not a wholey despicable person, I can forgive certain transgressions and appreciate their work.  That would include a HUGE number of rock and roll artists.  A lot of them have done some really shitty things, but they are not necessarily wholly despicable people.

But, of course, there are instances of severe transgression.  If I thought Mein Kampf was a great work of literature (I don't know, I haven't read it), I would still find it impossible to regard that work because of the terrible person who wrote it.  I think I would have to discount the work of people who committed atrocious acts at that level. 

The most difficult cases (and I'm not going to name the obvious because I'm not interested in arguing over a particular case) involve a work of art that was created by one person but enhanced by another.  For example, a song sung by a wonderful singer and yet produced by someone you find despicable.  Do you disregard the song because of the horrible producer, or love it because it is a great vocal by a decent person?  I would chose the latter. 

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   

It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

brianlux

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   

It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   

It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???

In the sense that Writer/Director Wes Craven had a memory from being a child of looking out from his bedroom window in the night and seeing an old man in a hat and trenchcoat standing outside under a lamp post looking up at him.

brianlux

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

But then, I also know some of the things we read are hearsay, or gossip, or exaggerations, so is a clear and simple judgement that easy to make?  And who is blameless?   

It's a line everyone will have to draw based on their own conscience - but there is a difference between "being completely blameless" and killing 20+ children on and around Elm Street, Springwood in the 70s. Like you yourself point out. 

Was Freddie Kruger based on a real person???

In the sense that Writer/Director Wes Craven had a memory from being a child of looking out from his bedroom window in the night and seeing an old man in a hat and trenchcoat standing outside under a lamp post looking up at him.

Interesting. 

I'm not at all a fan of slasher type artistry.  Enough of that exists in the real world.

hedonist

We all judge, and we’re all judged.

I don’t know what lies in a stranger’s heart any more than they do mine, and what flies for me won’t for another (and vice versa). Goes with my own level of (dis)comfort toward the act itself.

Not losing any sleep over it, that’s for sure.

mickeyrat

Cosby.....

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

Cosby.....

Augh... makes me sick.  I used to love that guy.  Can't do it now.  No way.

Poncier

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

JeBurkhardt

Poncier said:

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

Nope. That guy always gave off a weird vibe, but not enough to make me think he was completely delusional. 

Poncier

JeBurkhardt said:

Poncier said:

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

Nope. That guy always gave off a weird vibe, but not enough to make me think he was completely delusional. 

Yeah, just thought he was a basic shill until he appeared at one of Trump's Covid dog and pony shows last spring and said that together they would "pray the virus away". Then I realized what a loon he was.

PureandEasy

I had a hard time with this question as well. 

I can think of one example where my opinion changed on an artist after seeing them live.  It’s something I can’t help, any new music by this artist just doesn’t really appeal to me anymore because I had that one experience that did not sit well with me.

The artist/band was the Foo Fighters.  Dave Grohl was so CRUDE, totally insulting to women, telling very graphic stories about women; basically indicating their purpose in life is to satisfy men.    

I went to that show with two males, and we all walked out of there shocked at what we witnessed.  I was blown away that this was his front man persona.  

pjhawks

this is a hard question. I put sometimes.  There are actors, comedians and musicians who have done questionable or worse things but I can still watch or listen to.  Sadly part of it probably depends on what I thought of their art before I learned about their transgressions.  I can still listen to some Michael Jackson but have no interest in ever hearing or seeing Bill Cosby again.  I mean that makes no sense right?  I get that and can't give an answer to why.  So for me, sometimes I tune them out and sometimes I don't. 

brianlux

PureandEasy said:

I had a hard time with this question as well. 

I can think of one example where my opinion changed on an artist after seeing them live.  It’s something I can’t help, any new music by this artist just doesn’t really appeal to me anymore because I had that one experience that did not sit well with me.

The artist/band was the Foo Fighters.  Dave Grohl was so CRUDE, totally insulting to women, telling very graphic stories about women; basically indicating their purpose in life is to satisfy men.    

I went to that show with two males, and we all walked out of there shocked at what we witnessed.  I was blown away that this was his front man persona.  

I can see hwy you would be bummed.  What a shame!

pjhawks said:

this is a hard question. I put sometimes.  There are actors, comedians and musicians who have done questionable or worse things but I can still watch or listen to.  Sadly part of it probably depends on what I thought of their art before I learned about their transgressions.  I can still listen to some Michael Jackson but have no interest in ever hearing or seeing Bill Cosby again.  I mean that makes no sense right?  I get that and can't give an answer to why.  So for me, sometimes I tune them out and sometimes I don't. 

That makes sense to me because I'm sometimes that way and don't know why.   I can think of a few artists I was a fan of early on years ago and later learned more about them and that pretty much left me cool to their work.  Others, on the other hand, I still enjoy.  It's hard to say why the discrepancy.  

Fifthelement

PureandEasy said:

I had a hard time with this question as well. 

I can think of one example where my opinion changed on an artist after seeing them live.  It’s something I can’t help, any new music by this artist just doesn’t really appeal to me anymore because I had that one experience that did not sit well with me.

The artist/band was the Foo Fighters.  Dave Grohl was so CRUDE, totally insulting to women, telling very graphic stories about women; basically indicating their purpose in life is to satisfy men.    

I went to that show with two males, and we all walked out of there shocked at what we witnessed.  I was blown away that this was his front man persona.  

Wow!  That is do unexpected.  I’ve seen them a few times and that was not my experience at all.  Was this recent? Early in their career?  Post- divorce?  Regardless, I’m so sorry you had that experience.

pjhawks said:

this is a hard question. I put sometimes.  There are actors, comedians and musicians who have done questionable or worse things but I can still watch or listen to.  Sadly part of it probably depends on what I thought of their art before I learned about their transgressions.  I can still listen to some Michael Jackson but have no interest in ever hearing or seeing Bill Cosby again.  I mean that makes no sense right?  I get that and can't give an answer to why.  So for me, sometimes I tune them out and sometimes I don't. 

I think your on to something there.  If you really liked or admired an artist before the negative behaviour was revealed, one is probably going to give them more leeway. I think, especially in the case of MJ, that he and his music was is much a part of the cultural zeitgeist if the 80s that we tapping our toes and singing a long before our brains kick in and question whether or not it’s appropriate.

MJ I such a complicated one.  Mental illness, drug addiction, money, fame, abusive parents, his and the children, salacious gossip.  Also, unproven in a court of law, pedophilia charges; but that was because he could afford to pay his way out? I don’t go out of my way to listen to him, I never did, but if he comes on the radio I don’t think to immediately change the station.  Overall, everything to do with MJ is just sad on so many levels.

PJ_Soul

Poncier said:

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

Have you felt a My Pillow? They are literally the lumpiest pillows ever made. I don't know how anyone can sleep on those things!

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

Poncier said:

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

Have you felt a My Pillow? They are literally the lumpiest pillows ever made. I don't know how anyone can sleep on those things!

I haven't felt one, but I heard it's chunks of memory foam.  I have a pillow made of little chunks of memory foam that I "got" from a surgical unit in a hospital and it's amazing...it does feel lumpy to the touch, but you don't feel that when you lay your head on it and I've been using it every night for 11 years and it hasn't flattened or lost loft at all. 
Fuck that guy though.. 

F Me In The Brain

PJ_Soul said:

Poncier said:

Anyone sleeping on a MyPillow?

Have you felt a My Pillow? They are literally the lumpiest pillows ever made. I don't know how anyone can sleep on those things!

They are asleep before they hit the pillow....typing out all of those Comet Ping Pong pizza stories really tires a right wing nutter MyPillow fan conspiracy theorist right out.

PureandEasy

My Foos experience was a long time ago, I'd say early 2003-2004. I have spoken with a friend who was aware of that persona but did also indicate he has changed his ways on stage.  But that one experience was enough to turn me off.  I don't not listen when they come on the radio but I will never pay money to see them again.

lastexitlondon

PureandEasy said:

My Foos experience was a long time ago, I'd say early 2003-2004. I have spoken with a friend who was aware of that persona but did also indicate he has changed his ways on stage.  But that one experience was enough to turn me off.  I don't not listen when they come on the radio but I will never pay money to see them again.

Don't  blame you.  Not cool