If Iran Shot Down the Ukraine Jet, the U.S. Government Deserves a Little Blame

A smart foreign policy includes the consideration of unintended consequences.

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

pjl44 said:

This is a plane that originally departed from the Tehran airport. It's 100% Iran's responsibility. Trump has done plenty wrong, but it's not a zero sum game.

Sure, if you willfully ignore all the events that led up to and surrounded the tragedy. I'm sure historians will look at it that way, why would anyone be interested in context?

Hahaha this is pretty comical really.  So, now that Iran sent ballistic missiles at americans, if Trump shoots down a plane over one of those bases that is carrying americans, it's Iran's fault?   

You respond to a comment about ignoring context with a comment ignoring context. Congratulations on the most useless comment in this thread today, but it's still early, I'm sure you have more.

You should focus on the topic more and deflect by focusing on the posters by trying to belittle them less. 

Says the one jumping into a conversation by going hahaha, pretty comical really. I should really take anything that person has to say after that seriously. 

I won't be taking your advice on how to navigate around here, but thanks for the tip.

Yo diggin - was thinking about this a bit and I wanted to apologize for my comment using "comical".  Certainly not the right way to have a good conversation about a topic and I see how I could be then instigator in this back and forth.  Not my intention. 

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   

pjl44 said:

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   

I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjl44 said:

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   

I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?

i asked this exact same question and *crickets*. 

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

pjl44 said:

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   

I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?

i asked this exact same question and *crickets*. 

I answered..  

mickeyrat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

cincybearcat said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

Is Iran to blame at all? 

Trump first escalated this mess for sure, owns some responsibility but a small amount for this specific incident (in my opinion).  

I just don’t know... Trump attacked a foreigner on foreign soil.  Is that Iran’s fault? Soldiers “trigger happy” because they don’t know what he will do next? Is that Iran’s fault... not so sure. 

Im convinced it’s Trumps mess. The whole thing is self-preservation. He doesn’t care about anything but winning.  The nation, NATO allies, soldiers lives, innocent civilians lives... none of it matters to him. 

I have no doubt he attacked just to secure Republican Senate votes to avoid getting turfed from that earlier post. Makes perfect sense really, he wouldn’t have any reason to do it otherwise. Think about it, it came out of nowhere! 

this I would imagine most of us agree on. 

Fair enough. Sorry for getting too fired up. I’m really frightened and pissed off. I went back to my visit to Birkenau after the Krakow show last year and the feeling of dread I had that everything I value and treasure is being led by the village idiot who is in the back pocket of pure evil (Putin).
Also, I cannot put into words the grief I feel for your friend. I am holding back tears as I type this... it should never have happened and I hold Trump 100% responsible.  It’s of little solace to you and your friend I know, but he has to be stopped or there will be more.... many more. 

The War Pigs are circling him... and it’s worrisome 

it was thought by many that this would be the year trump would try to start something, depending how impeachment and his poll numbers went. it was to be completely expected. but I don't think we need to build the bunker just yet. I went crazy when he was first elected, thinking this was going to be the end of the planet as we know it. it seems some have gone back to that fear based thinking. Do I have confidence in the checks and balances of the US government to reign in the POTUS? not anymore. But while I think he's a self-service POS, I don't think he's going to bring us WW3. 

But I do have confidence in other world leaders to not jump on board with his bullshit. I know Trudeau won't, anyway. 

have seen reporting from  wsj article trump told aides he did this to curry senate favor during impeachment.......

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

mrussel1 said:

pjl44 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

1ThoughtKnown said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

josevolution said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

I can take a wild guess. 

I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...

i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 

Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  

My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 

I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.

I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   

I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?

There's a big difference, to me, because the strike on bin Laden was a retalitory strike on an individual who had planned and executed a very specific attack on our citizens.  Should the roles have been reversed, and the chronology was:  Iran fires missiles at our barracks ->we take out the general->Iran shoots down the airline, I would not be critical of Trump.  There is an obligation to defend ourselves, obviously.  But the justification was somewhere between razor thin and non-existent for our first strike.  That's why I agree with the Reason article.