9-11 plotters get a trial date. finally.
Comments
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I guess its a good thing SCOTUS has an opinion too......
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If we stop start torturing people and taking away their right to due process, we become the enemy. How could anyone who professes to be patriotic in this country go a long with that? For that matter, how could anyone go a long with that be they a patriot or not?
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.
Yes, I am glad that you recognize that I will advocate for upholding the legal rights of every single person, every single time. I'd rather be known for that than for advocating torture.
And no, it wouldn't matter whether there was a terrorist attack on Canadian soil. That's a specious argument with no basis in fact.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
mickeyrat said:
no. it applies ALWAYS or never. choose.mcgruff10 said:
9/11 was different, you know that. Plus when this happened it was legal under W.mickeyrat said:
the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.mcgruff10 said:
Not in this instance. These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured. They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them? What would you have done with them?mickeyrat said:
arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.
Exactly.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
What proof do you have that torture saves lives? Where's your data?mcgruff10 said:
Correct, the 13th amendment took care of that. However I still stand by my opinion thatmickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
The patriot act? And again, it was legal under W which is when it happened.mickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
Where in the constitution does it say that? Pretty sure patriot act gives us permission tomickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
If it saves American or allied lives than I am all for it.mickeyrat said:
no. it applies ALWAYS or never. choose.mcgruff10 said:
9/11 was different, you know that. Plus when this happened it was legal under W.mickeyrat said:
the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.mcgruff10 said:
Not in this instance. These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured. They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them? What would you have done with them?mickeyrat said:
arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.then tear the constitution up and use it for toilet paper.every single service member swears an oath to preserve and defend that document and the ldeals it contains.There are no exceptions.
do so. And I agree with meltdown, there should be no rules with war. We lose when politicians get involved.pssst we werent at war with nonstate actors. which al Qaeda is.so let me ask you this. Where in the constitution does it say the rule of law applies except for when ......?then deemed illegal, so it kinda calls into question its initial legality OR SCOTUS wouldnt have knocked that down.psst slavery was legal at one time too....
torture should be used in interrogations when trying to extract vital information in order to save American or allied lives.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
This might sound stupid. But it takes people to commit the torture. What about the long term effects on those people. Or are we okay with producing sociopaths that can torture a fellow human being without empathy?Peace,Love and Pearl Jam.0
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That doesn't sound stupid at all. The effects on the people who have to do these things as part of their job are significant and long lasting, and another argument against the use of torture, not that we should need another one.pearljammr78 said:This might sound stupid. But it takes people to commit the torture. What about the long term effects on those people. Or are we okay with producing sociopaths that can torture a fellow human being without empathy?my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
It s something I believe in. I have no reason to show statistics to prove my own opinion.oftenreading said:
What proof do you have that torture saves lives? Where's your data?mcgruff10 said:
Correct, the 13th amendment took care of that. However I still stand by my opinion thatmickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
The patriot act? And again, it was legal under W which is when it happened.mickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
Where in the constitution does it say that? Pretty sure patriot act gives us permission tomickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
If it saves American or allied lives than I am all for it.mickeyrat said:
no. it applies ALWAYS or never. choose.mcgruff10 said:
9/11 was different, you know that. Plus when this happened it was legal under W.mickeyrat said:
the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.mcgruff10 said:
Not in this instance. These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured. They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them? What would you have done with them?mickeyrat said:
arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.then tear the constitution up and use it for toilet paper.every single service member swears an oath to preserve and defend that document and the ldeals it contains.There are no exceptions.
do so. And I agree with meltdown, there should be no rules with war. We lose when politicians get involved.pssst we werent at war with nonstate actors. which al Qaeda is.so let me ask you this. Where in the constitution does it say the rule of law applies except for when ......?then deemed illegal, so it kinda calls into question its initial legality OR SCOTUS wouldnt have knocked that down.psst slavery was legal at one time too....
torture should be used in interrogations when trying to extract vital information in order to save American or allied lives.
And I really do believe if four commercial airliners flew into civilians buildings in Canada you would feel different.
Post edited by mcgruff10 onI'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
I'm still kinda marvelling that you think it's a bad thing to be in favour of upholding legal rights of the accused.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
Not off the people that planned out 9/11. They aren’t criminals, they are the enemy. They literally waged war against the United States.oftenreading said:
I'm still kinda marvelling that you think it's a bad thing to be in favour of upholding legal rights of the accused.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.
Again, completely different ballgame.
Post edited by mcgruff10 onI'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
Ive just read all this and 2 things i thought.
1. Why is 9/11 different? I don't get why this terrible crime is worse than any other?
2. If the people organising it failed to execute the plan are they still to be tortured? I mean does it go on amount killed or intent?
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -0 -
These cowherds are not just responsible for WTC, they started a war that in the 19th year and are responsible for untold number of deaths...they are not human ... torture away. We all know the world overcrowded. The world does not need scum like this.Give Peas A Chance…0
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But scum as you put it are everywhere. Is it the fact their plan worked. Because splinter cells all over the world are plotting. I don't know about torture and which countries use it but my view is many people have done bad crimes and killed one or thousands but i can't agree with torture i don't think. Lots of innocent people have been tortured also. I guess its like the death penalty making sure the person is 100% guilty because im sure lots of the wrong person have been killed over the years.
Post edited by lastexitlondon on
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -0 -
Damn good point. Hadn't thought that far, but yeah. Who the hell would do that kind of work? No one I want to know.pearljammr78 said:This might sound stupid. But it takes people to commit the torture. What about the long term effects on those people. Or are we okay with producing sociopaths that can torture a fellow human being without empathy?
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
lastexitlondon said:But scum as you put it are everywhere. Is it the fact their plan worked. Because splinter cells all over the world are plotting. I don't know about torture and which countries use it but my view is many people have done bad crimes and killed one or thousands but i can't agree with torture i don't think. Lots of innocent people have been tortured also. I guess its like the death penalty making sure the person is 100% guilty because im sure lots of the wrong person have been killed over the years.Another good point.We should be talking about the human condition, not this country or that. It's all wrong. Unfettered hate, hyper-fear, disdain for life, prejudice, hatred of nature and wildness. It's all wrong. Why can't (or won't) people see that?"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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Advocating for torture. What the hell is this."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0
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I'll I agree with McGruff and Meltdown on this2005 - London
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2016 - Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Ottawa, Toronto 1
2018 - Fenway 1&2
2022 - Hamilton, Toronto
2023 - Chicago 1&2
2024 - Las Vegas 1&20 -
As a wise person once said, you can have your own opinion but you can’t have your own facts.mcgruff10 said:
It s something I believe in. I have no reason to show statistics to prove my own opinion.oftenreading said:
What proof do you have that torture saves lives? Where's your data?mcgruff10 said:
Correct, the 13th amendment took care of that. However I still stand by my opinion thatmickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
The patriot act? And again, it was legal under W which is when it happened.mickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
Where in the constitution does it say that? Pretty sure patriot act gives us permission tomickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
If it saves American or allied lives than I am all for it.mickeyrat said:
no. it applies ALWAYS or never. choose.mcgruff10 said:
9/11 was different, you know that. Plus when this happened it was legal under W.mickeyrat said:
the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.mcgruff10 said:
Not in this instance. These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured. They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them? What would you have done with them?mickeyrat said:
arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.then tear the constitution up and use it for toilet paper.every single service member swears an oath to preserve and defend that document and the ldeals it contains.There are no exceptions.
do so. And I agree with meltdown, there should be no rules with war. We lose when politicians get involved.pssst we werent at war with nonstate actors. which al Qaeda is.so let me ask you this. Where in the constitution does it say the rule of law applies except for when ......?then deemed illegal, so it kinda calls into question its initial legality OR SCOTUS wouldnt have knocked that down.psst slavery was legal at one time too....
torture should be used in interrogations when trying to extract vital information in order to save American or allied lives.
And I really do believe if four commercial airliners flew into civilians buildings in Canada you would feel different.
If one is going to advocate for illegal measures with the rationale that it will save lives, I would think that you would at least be interested in knowing if it saves lives or not. Since you’re not, we can assume that’s it’s an emotional decision geared at punishment, and not in fact an attempt to gain information.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
It’s interesting that you can’t conceive of someone thinking differently on this.mcgruff10 said:
It s something I believe in. I have no reason to show statistics to prove my own opinion.oftenreading said:
What proof do you have that torture saves lives? Where's your data?mcgruff10 said:
Correct, the 13th amendment took care of that. However I still stand by my opinion thatmickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
The patriot act? And again, it was legal under W which is when it happened.mickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
Where in the constitution does it say that? Pretty sure patriot act gives us permission tomickeyrat said:mcgruff10 said:
If it saves American or allied lives than I am all for it.mickeyrat said:
no. it applies ALWAYS or never. choose.mcgruff10 said:
9/11 was different, you know that. Plus when this happened it was legal under W.mickeyrat said:
the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.mcgruff10 said:
Not in this instance. These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured. They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them? What would you have done with them?mickeyrat said:
arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.mcgruff10 said:
Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack thatoftenreading said:
So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective.mcgruff10 said:
I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vitaloftenreading said:
And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that?mcgruff10 said:
Because it is war. Completely different set of rules. Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives.oftenreading said:mcgruff10 said:
In war? Absolutely.brianlux said:
You really approve of using torture as a punishment? That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.mcgruff10 said:
War is hell. Torture/interrogation has a time and place. This is definitely one of those times.brianlux said:
You actually promote torture? Really man, think about that.Meltdown99 said:That’s good hear. Can we torture the bastards before we execute them. They caused so many people unspeakable pain. Not the mention the wars.
Why?
The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree.
information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.
So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?
If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.
Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well.
Wonderful. But not actually surprising.
killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.then tear the constitution up and use it for toilet paper.every single service member swears an oath to preserve and defend that document and the ldeals it contains.There are no exceptions.
do so. And I agree with meltdown, there should be no rules with war. We lose when politicians get involved.pssst we werent at war with nonstate actors. which al Qaeda is.so let me ask you this. Where in the constitution does it say the rule of law applies except for when ......?then deemed illegal, so it kinda calls into question its initial legality OR SCOTUS wouldnt have knocked that down.psst slavery was legal at one time too....
torture should be used in interrogations when trying to extract vital information in order to save American or allied lives.
And I really do believe if four commercial airliners flew into civilians buildings in Canada you would feel different.
You and and I have very different values. I will never advocate torture or lack of due process. How many times do we have to repeat history to finally learn from it?
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0
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