9-11 plotters get a trial date. finally.

 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/30/us/politics/sept-11-trial-guantanamo-bay.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage

This article was produced in partnership with the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting.

WASHINGTON — Moving toward a final reckoning as the nation approaches the 20th anniversary of the day that led to the longest war in American history, a military judge on Friday set a date for the death penalty trial at Guantánamo Bay of the five men accused of plotting the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The judge, Col. W. Shane Cohen of the Air Force, set Jan. 11, 2021, for the start of the selection of a military jury at Camp Justice, the war court compound at the Navy base in Cuba. It is the first time that a judge in the case actually set a start-of-trial date.

The case against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and four other men, should it proceed, would be the definitive trial tied to the Sept. 11 attacks. Until now, only foot soldiers of Al Qaeda have been tried at Guantánamo, and many of their convictions have been overturned.

Mr. Mohammed and the four others face the death penalty in a conspiracy case that describes Mr. Mohammed as the architect of the plot in which 19 men hijacked four commercial passenger planes and slammed two of them into the World Trade Center towers and one into the Pentagon. The fourth, which was believed to be aimed for the Capitol, crashed into a Pennsylvania field instead. The other four men are described as helping the hijackers with training, travel or finances.

The charge sheets lists the names of the 2,976 people who died in the attacks.

“We’ve been wanting a date for a very long time,” said Terry Strada, whose husband, Tom, a corporate bond broker and partner with Cantor Fitzgerald, was killed in the World Trade Center. “This is good news. I certainly hope nothing will happen between now and then to change this. The families have suffered long enough.”

Kathleen Vigiano, whose husband, Joseph Vigiano, a New York police detective, and brother-in-law, John Vigiano Jr., a New York firefighter, were both killed at the World Trade Center, said she was relieved after the years of delay. “People say, this is still going on?” she said. “No, it hasn’t started yet.”

The delay is in part a reflection of the difficulty the military has had in carrying out prosecutions in a judicial system that was created in response to the Sept. 11 attacks.

It is still unclear if the trial will actually occur. A judge has yet to rule on whether crucial F.B.I. agents’ descriptions of the defendants’ confessions are admissible because the defendants were tortured in C.I.A. prisons. Defense lawyers have said they will go to federal court closer to the trial start date to try to stop the proceedings.

Another outstanding issue is the need for magnetic resonance imaging scans of the five defendants to see if they suffered brain or other physical damage from torture. Defense lawyers might use the M.R.I.s to argue against the men’s executions if they are convicted.

Guantánamo itself is not yet ready for a trial that is expected to last as long as nine months. A judge has ordered prosecutors to give him written updates throughout 2020 on how the government will provide work spaces, lodging and food for trial participants, including the judge and his staff, the jury, lawyers, paralegals, court reporters, translators and reporters at a small Navy base of about 6,000 residents in southeast Cuba. He has also ordered a plan for how to sequester the military jury and how to get participants on and off the island during judicially approved breaks in the trial. For now, reporters and other observers live in tents.

The war crimes trial by military commissions — a hybrid of federal and military courts — will be held in a special courtroom allowing people sitting behind the court in a spectator’s gallery to watch live. But because it is a national security case with the potential to inadvertently make public classified information, the proceedings will be heard on a 40-second delay. Some of the tens of thousands of people who are victims or relatives of the Sept. 11 victims will also be able to watch the proceedings through video broadcast to military bases in New York, Massachusetts and Maryland.

For now, the general public would be able to see the live proceedings only through a video feed shown at Fort Meade, Md.


continues...


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«13

Comments

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,698
     

    If the 2021 start date holds, jury selection would start eight months before the 20th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks.

    The trial date was included in a 10-page scheduling order that set deadlines toward jury selection.

    [Read the order.]

    Mr. Mohammed and the four other men were captured in Pakistan in 2002 and 2003. The C.I.A. then held them incommunicado in its secret prison network of black sites, where the United States tortured its prisoners with waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other abuse before delivering them to Guantánamo in 2006. That period has complicated the path to a trial.

    The men were initially charged during the George W. Bush administration at Guantánamo. President Barack Obama stopped that case and suspended the military tribunals in order to add more protections for due process. The result was the hybrid war court that exists today.

    The case was also delayed by an Obama administration plan to try the five men in federal court in New York City. But protests and then legislation in Congress prevented it.

    Besides Mr. Mohammed, two of the other men charged are Walid bin Attash and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, described as deputies in carrying out the attacks. Prosecutors say Mr. bin al-Shibh organized a cell of hijackers in Hamburg, Germany. The final two men charged are Ammar al-Baluchi, Mr. Mohammed’s nephew, and Mustafa al Hawsawi.

    All five were arraigned in May 2012. Since then, judges have held more than 30 pretrial hearing sessions to work out questions of law and evidence that would apply at the trial.

    In July, a prosecutor, Ed Ryan, urged the judge to set a date saying, “Our client, this nation, deserves a reckoning.”

    In a lengthy exchange with the judge, Mr. Ryan argued that “dates energize and mobilize” people to prepare.

    On Friday, defense lawyers on the case said that many of the judge’s milestones toward trial were dependent on the prosecution meeting a series of deadlines.

    “For a January 2021 trial date to happen, the government would have to drop its obstructionism and produce a lot of important evidence and witnesses,” said James G. Connell III, the lead defense counsel for Mr. Baluchi. Mr. Connell said he had received more than 25,000 pages of case-related documents since July and expected that many more were coming.

    Selection of the jury — 12 members and four alternate members — is expected to last months, with American military officers shuttled by air to and from the base in groups because of the limited housing at Guantánamo.

    Besides conspiracy, the men are charged with committing murder in violation of the law of war, attacking civilians and terrorism. Should the men be convicted and sentenced to death, it is up to the secretary of defense to determine the method of execution.

    Correction: Aug. 30, 2019

    An earlier version of this article misstated the interval of time between a proposed start date for jury selection in the trial of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and the 20th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks. It is eight months, not nine.

    This article was produced in partnership with the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,635
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,981
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,698
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    that is alledged to have already occured and might prevent application of the death penalty. read the first 2 posts.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    mickeyrat said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    that is alledged to have already occured and might prevent application of the death penalty. read the first 2 posts.
    I read it and agree with what the cia did.  Either the death penalty or life without parole is ok with me.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    Information and/or confessions gained under torture should be inadmissible in court, for both practical and ethical reasons. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  

    Are the lawyers involved in prosecuting this case scumbags as well, or are they okay?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,981
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    edited August 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.   Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 
    Just to be clear I am not saying torture should be used as punishment, just for getting vital info.  
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,981
    Well, fuck me.  I thought I knew people better.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    edited August 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  

    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    edited August 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,698
    ha!!! moral high ground. thats a riot.  that looks good on the brochure but in practice not so much. that ship sailed long ago.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,981
    Funny how some things are "OK" is we do it, but when it's done to us, people scream bloody murder.  I guess some people around here must hate Neil Young and all his b.s. talk about peace and love.  Oh, now come to think of it, wasn't there another supposedly well loved band who backed him on that song, "Peace and Love"?  I suppose some here think they are a bunch of wankers too.  Lovely.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,266
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
    You obviously know the answer to this so Just get to your point. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,266
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
    You obviously know the answer to this so Just get to your point. 
    You know my point, which is- If the US condones torture then we cannot be outraged if torture is used against us. 
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
    You obviously know the answer to this so Just get to your point. 
    You know my point, which is- If the US condones torture then we cannot be outraged if torture is used against us. 
    As an American you honestly feel that way?  You are ok with us servicemen and women being tortured death just because the cia does it?

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,266
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
    You obviously know the answer to this so Just get to your point. 
    You know my point, which is- If the US condones torture then we cannot be outraged if torture is used against us. 
    As an American you honestly feel that way?  You are ok with us servicemen and women being tortured death just because the cia does it?

    How did you arrive that I feel that way? I think you're misconstruing what I said. Obviously I'm against the torture of US citizens, just as I'm against torture in general. 
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective. 

    Wonderful. But not actually surprising. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    edited August 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective. 

    Wonderful. But not actually surprising. 
    Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack that
    killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.  
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    eddiec said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    I have to ask- If a US plane was shot down over Afghanistan, and the pilots were tortured to death, would you be okay with that?
    You obviously know the answer to this so Just get to your point. 
    You know my point, which is- If the US condones torture then we cannot be outraged if torture is used against us. 
    As an American you honestly feel that way?  You are ok with us servicemen and women being tortured death just because the cia does it?

    How did you arrive that I feel that way? I think you're misconstruing what I said. Obviously I'm against the torture of US citizens, just as I'm against torture in general. 
    So you feel the us should be better than our enemies?  After surrendering or capture you get three meals, entry to the us, maybe free college education?  (I am obviously being sarcastic). 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,698
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective. 

    Wonderful. But not actually surprising. 
    Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack that
    killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.  
    arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,697
    mickeyrat said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective. 

    Wonderful. But not actually surprising. 
    Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack that
    killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.  
    arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.
    Not in this instance.  These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured.  They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them?  What would you have done with them?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,698
    mcgruff10 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    brianlux said:
    That’s good hear.  Can we torture the bastards before we execute them.   They caused so many people unspeakable pain.  Not the mention the wars.  
    You actually promote torture?  Really man, think about that.
    War is hell.  Torture/interrogation has a time and place.  This is definitely one of those times.  
    You really approve of using torture as a punishment?  That kind of fucks with my head, to be honest.
    In war?  Absolutely. 

    Why?
    Because it is war.  Completely different set of rules.  Extracting information can save hundreds if not thousands of lives. 

    And you believe that torture is an effective, ethical and legal way to do that? 

    The Geneva Convention signatories would disagree. 
     


    Yes i believe it can be very effective when extracting vital
    information. Also, name a country the us has fought that followed the Geneva convention.  


    So your argument is "everybody else does it?". Why is that relevant? The US is a signatory, is it not?

    If you are willing to use torture just because your enemies do it, you have no basis to claim any moral high ground.

    Plus, you don't know the research data on forced confessions very well. 
    I could care less about moral ground. I m all for it if it saves lives. Doesn’t Canada do the same?


    So you don't care if you're doing what you castigate others for, and you don't care if it actually is effective. 

    Wonderful. But not actually surprising. 
    Not surprising that you are advocating for the rights of people who orchestrated an attack that
    killed nearly 3,000 civilians. Yeah those people deserved ehat was done to them. Maybe if Canada had some sort of event like 9/11 you would feel different.  
    arent we supposed to be better than that? if what we have is so exceptional for the world, then dont we have to live it? adhere to the founding principles?to abandon that in the face of that horror, shows we arent. they win/won. if thats the case we should stop kidding ourselves and rip it up. it becomes meaningless.
    Not in this instance.  These people are the definition of evil and deserve what happened to them after being captured.  They attacked our soil by flying four commercial jets into areas of civilian life, why do we have to be better than them?  What would you have done with them?
    the rule of law is everything or it is nothing. choose.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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