Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

catefrances said:

we all know that anti abortion laws arent about the sanctity of life, theyre about control. in the end the decision to carry a pregnancy to term or to terminate it for whatever reason is the sole decision of the women. i imagine this must rankle some men like nothing else on earth. but thats just tough luck for them being born with a penis. as hard as men try and desire to control women, we are not incubators and cant be treated as incubational slaves. the risks to the lives of women are too great.     

oftenreading said:

drakeheuer14 said:

catefrances said:

we all know that anti abortion laws arent about the sanctity of life, theyre about control. in the end the decision to carry a pregnancy to term or to terminate it for whatever reason is the sole decision of the women. i imagine this must rankle some men like nothing else on earth. but thats just tough luck for them being born with a penis. as hard as men try and desire to control women, we are not incubators and cant be treated as incubational slaves. the risks to the lives of women are too great.     

People just like to spin it that way to make any differing opinion sound evil and just about control. 

It is about control. No use pretending it isn’t. Your reasons for wanting that control may vary, but it’s absolutely about control.

benjs said:

I’m curious how others would feel about this, but what about an exclusively female vote on a cut-off (after X weeks/months) to permit abortions to shut men up about their bullshit claims of abortions within weeks of a due date? 

benjs said:

I’m curious how others would feel about this, but what about an exclusively female vote on a cut-off (after X weeks/months) to permit abortions to shut men up about their bullshit claims of abortions within weeks of a due date? 

benjs said:

catefrances said:

sorry to pop your bubble SC, but gender absolutely does matter when it comes to this. actually not gender, but sex cause trans men can actually carry a pregnancy.  just as a man's body is his own, so it is for woman. if a woman doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term that is her decision and her decision only. and it should never be any other way. we dont need conditions applied to our reason cause to be frank, the ONLY reason a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy is that she doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term.  and yes  we are in agreeance,  take religion out of civil matters and just allow safe abortion. 
btw, miscarriages are also known as spontaneous abortions.  the difference being in a miscarriage a woman's body decides to reject the embryo/foetus/unborn at whatever stage of the pregnancy  it feels like for whatever reason. whereas an abortion allows the woman agency.  either way a decision has been made. 

Cate, I just want to clarify my statement above. I would trust those with the ability to carry a pregnancy to make that judgment call about how late into a pregnancy is ‘too late’ to have an abortion. If that judgment call made is ‘never too late’ - I’m okay with that too. I believe this kind of ‘acceptable/not acceptable’ law (wherever the line, if any, is drawn) created by women for women would be the truest form of female empowerment on this topic and my hope would be that it would reclaim women’s rightful possession of their own bodies while telling men what conversations are never to be on the table again.

I think that the fundamental problem not being addressed is a woman’s right to make her own decisions on this topic, and unless there is law passed to insist on that fundamental right, I’m embarrassed to say I don’t see my gender relinquishing power willingly and I’m incredibly worried about that. Look how Roe v. Wade appears to be in jeopardy today - I want this resolved in favour of women’s rights once and for all with no shades of grey so there’s no room for disgusting political/religious/chauvinistic sleaze.

I’m inspired by the bill that Illinois passed, stating that a fetus does not have independent rights, and I think those kinds of line-drawing are critical to silence the feigned moral outrage on one of the most important ethical topics we’ve ever had as a civilization.

benjs said:

catefrances said:

sorry to pop your bubble SC, but gender absolutely does matter when it comes to this. actually not gender, but sex cause trans men can actually carry a pregnancy.  just as a man's body is his own, so it is for woman. if a woman doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term that is her decision and her decision only. and it should never be any other way. we dont need conditions applied to our reason cause to be frank, the ONLY reason a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy is that she doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term.  and yes  we are in agreeance,  take religion out of civil matters and just allow safe abortion. 
btw, miscarriages are also known as spontaneous abortions.  the difference being in a miscarriage a woman's body decides to reject the embryo/foetus/unborn at whatever stage of the pregnancy  it feels like for whatever reason. whereas an abortion allows the woman agency.  either way a decision has been made. 

Cate, I just want to clarify my statement above. I would trust those with the ability to carry a pregnancy to make that judgment call about how late into a pregnancy is ‘too late’ to have an abortion. If that judgment call made is ‘never too late’ - I’m okay with that too. I believe this kind of ‘acceptable/not acceptable’ law (wherever the line, if any, is drawn) created by women for women would be the truest form of female empowerment on this topic and my hope would be that it would reclaim women’s rightful possession of their own bodies while telling men what conversations are never to be on the table again.

I think that the fundamental problem not being addressed is a woman’s right to make her own decisions on this topic, and unless there is law passed to insist on that fundamental right, I’m embarrassed to say I don’t see my gender relinquishing power willingly and I’m incredibly worried about that. Look how Roe v. Wade appears to be in jeopardy today - I want this resolved in favour of women’s rights once and for all with no shades of grey so there’s no room for disgusting political/religious/chauvinistic sleaze.

I’m inspired by the bill that Illinois passed, stating that a fetus does not have independent rights, and I think those kinds of line-drawing are critical to silence the feigned moral outrage on one of the most important ethical topics we’ve ever had as a civilization.

benjs said:

catefrances said:

benjs said:

catefrances said:

sorry to pop your bubble SC, but gender absolutely does matter when it comes to this. actually not gender, but sex cause trans men can actually carry a pregnancy.  just as a man's body is his own, so it is for woman. if a woman doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term that is her decision and her decision only. and it should never be any other way. we dont need conditions applied to our reason cause to be frank, the ONLY reason a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy is that she doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term.  and yes  we are in agreeance,  take religion out of civil matters and just allow safe abortion. 
btw, miscarriages are also known as spontaneous abortions.  the difference being in a miscarriage a woman's body decides to reject the embryo/foetus/unborn at whatever stage of the pregnancy  it feels like for whatever reason. whereas an abortion allows the woman agency.  either way a decision has been made. 

Cate, I just want to clarify my statement above. I would trust those with the ability to carry a pregnancy to make that judgment call about how late into a pregnancy is ‘too late’ to have an abortion. If that judgment call made is ‘never too late’ - I’m okay with that too. I believe this kind of ‘acceptable/not acceptable’ law (wherever the line, if any, is drawn) created by women for women would be the truest form of female empowerment on this topic and my hope would be that it would reclaim women’s rightful possession of their own bodies while telling men what conversations are never to be on the table again.

I think that the fundamental problem not being addressed is a woman’s right to make her own decisions on this topic, and unless there is law passed to insist on that fundamental right, I’m embarrassed to say I don’t see my gender relinquishing power willingly and I’m incredibly worried about that. Look how Roe v. Wade appears to be in jeopardy today - I want this resolved in favour of women’s rights once and for all with no shades of grey so there’s no room for disgusting political/religious/chauvinistic sleaze.

I’m inspired by the bill that Illinois passed, stating that a fetus does not have independent rights, and I think those kinds of line-drawing are critical to silence the feigned moral outrage on one of the most important ethical topics we’ve ever had as a civilization.

thats the thing benjs whether created by men or women any law about when a woman can terminate a pregnancy is taking agency out of her hands. its not 'softer' or more acceptable or even empowering if the law was drawn up by women. ANY law 'drawing the line' is control.  bottom line is im not the one pregnant, therefore its not my call and not my business. 

I fully agree, Cate, I just worry about the backsliding we’re seeing today and how it might occur again in the future. That’s the only reason I feel the way I do is because I worry that in the absence of a law, protections and rights granted seem like they will be temporary and exploited. Even if such a line in the sand were drawn though, I agree with you 100% fundamentally that it’s no one’s call except for the person carrying a pregnancy, laws be damned.

catefrances said:

benjs said:

catefrances said:

benjs said:

catefrances said:

sorry to pop your bubble SC, but gender absolutely does matter when it comes to this. actually not gender, but sex cause trans men can actually carry a pregnancy.  just as a man's body is his own, so it is for woman. if a woman doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term that is her decision and her decision only. and it should never be any other way. we dont need conditions applied to our reason cause to be frank, the ONLY reason a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy is that she doesnt want to carry a pregnancy to term.  and yes  we are in agreeance,  take religion out of civil matters and just allow safe abortion. 
btw, miscarriages are also known as spontaneous abortions.  the difference being in a miscarriage a woman's body decides to reject the embryo/foetus/unborn at whatever stage of the pregnancy  it feels like for whatever reason. whereas an abortion allows the woman agency.  either way a decision has been made. 

Cate, I just want to clarify my statement above. I would trust those with the ability to carry a pregnancy to make that judgment call about how late into a pregnancy is ‘too late’ to have an abortion. If that judgment call made is ‘never too late’ - I’m okay with that too. I believe this kind of ‘acceptable/not acceptable’ law (wherever the line, if any, is drawn) created by women for women would be the truest form of female empowerment on this topic and my hope would be that it would reclaim women’s rightful possession of their own bodies while telling men what conversations are never to be on the table again.

I think that the fundamental problem not being addressed is a woman’s right to make her own decisions on this topic, and unless there is law passed to insist on that fundamental right, I’m embarrassed to say I don’t see my gender relinquishing power willingly and I’m incredibly worried about that. Look how Roe v. Wade appears to be in jeopardy today - I want this resolved in favour of women’s rights once and for all with no shades of grey so there’s no room for disgusting political/religious/chauvinistic sleaze.

I’m inspired by the bill that Illinois passed, stating that a fetus does not have independent rights, and I think those kinds of line-drawing are critical to silence the feigned moral outrage on one of the most important ethical topics we’ve ever had as a civilization.

thats the thing benjs whether created by men or women any law about when a woman can terminate a pregnancy is taking agency out of her hands. its not 'softer' or more acceptable or even empowering if the law was drawn up by women. ANY law 'drawing the line' is control.  bottom line is im not the one pregnant, therefore its not my call and not my business. 

I fully agree, Cate, I just worry about the backsliding we’re seeing today and how it might occur again in the future. That’s the only reason I feel the way I do is because I worry that in the absence of a law, protections and rights granted seem like they will be temporary and exploited. Even if such a line in the sand were drawn though, I agree with you 100% fundamentally that it’s no one’s call except for the person carrying a pregnancy, laws be damned.

 and lets be honest, nothing is going to stop women seeking abortions, so why not work with them to provide the best outcome for THEM.