Team Mueller (and Their Report)

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  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    PJ_Soul said:
    benjs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    josevolution said:
    mickeyrat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    vaggar99 said:
    let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.
    I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
    beginning?
    Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
    No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
    It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 
    You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
    This is all way too unprovable. Too many variables, no uniform definition of ‘decline’, no way of measuring decline except for economic factors (which really don’t indicate the whole story or anything close to it), a mass media that loves to state definitively why something is happening with no justification for why the throngs of other variables ought to be discounted. I don’t understand what it is that compels us to focus on “why”, an unanswerable question in a modern and entangled world. “What should we do from here” seems more relevant and maybe, hopefully, even answerable. 
    Well obviously it's just my opinion, but I am specifically talking about how this will go down in literal history. Hundreds of years from now this will be recorded in the same manner the decline and fall of all other past civilizations are: academically. We can sit here in the present and say oh, there are so many variables. But that isn't how it pans out in history books. Moments and causes are pretty well defined in that context, including the socio-political and cultural influences that lead to the defining moments. Doing that is far from impossible among historians. There aren't too many questions that end up being unanswerable in that context. Not in the long run.

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Makes sense! Sorry Allie, it’s the data nerd in me that sometimes gets too pedantic about rules of logic and the silly causal relations we think are fairly certain.

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  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,993
    PJ_Soul said:

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Another thing to consider is who is going to write this history. Thirty or forty years from now, history books that are unfavorable to Trump (and thus, accurate) will likely be cast into the lava that surrounds Empress Ivanka's castle, along with those who wrote them. 

    I'm kidding there of course (well...half-kidding), but "history" is an interesting thing when it comes to who it's written by, and who it's written for. For example, my friend lives in Arlington, VA. His niece is taught in school that the confederacy was right, and that Lincoln was a treasonous warmonger that unjustly invaded the southern states. Yes, school-aged children in the United States are being taught this in the year 2019. 

    As for Trump, I'm still not sure if we'll look back on this like "Oh yeah, remember when Donald Trump was president? That was strange." Or, is Trumpism something that's here to stay? You know how all the republicans kept parroting "Ronald Reagan" during the primary? Is that how it will be 30 years from now? Some crazy politician saying "Well just like the great President Trump once said...."
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,665
    edited May 2019
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Another thing to consider is who is going to write this history. Thirty or forty years from now, history books that are unfavorable to Trump (and thus, accurate) will likely be cast into the lava that surrounds Empress Ivanka's castle, along with those who wrote them. 

    I'm kidding there of course (well...half-kidding), but "history" is an interesting thing when it comes to who it's written by, and who it's written for. For example, my friend lives in Arlington, VA. His niece is taught in school that the confederacy was right, and that Lincoln was a treasonous warmonger that unjustly invaded the southern states. Yes, school-aged children in the United States are being taught this in the year 2019. 

    As for Trump, I'm still not sure if we'll look back on this like "Oh yeah, remember when Donald Trump was president? That was strange." Or, is Trumpism something that's here to stay? You know how all the republicans kept parroting "Ronald Reagan" during the primary? Is that how it will be 30 years from now? Some crazy politician saying "Well just like the great President Trump once said...."
    That will definitely all depend on who the "winners and losers" are! Though frankly, I would rather read American history texts published by any country BUT America (and Russia!). That will likely provide more accurate accounts of things!
    I'm afraid I do see Trumpism lasting. The way a significant number of Americans are thinking now... that will have a very lasting impact. I think the divide between citizens in America is probably permanent, and I think that is what allows Trumpism to thrive.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Another thing to consider is who is going to write this history. Thirty or forty years from now, history books that are unfavorable to Trump (and thus, accurate) will likely be cast into the lava that surrounds Empress Ivanka's castle, along with those who wrote them. 

    I'm kidding there of course (well...half-kidding), but "history" is an interesting thing when it comes to who it's written by, and who it's written for. For example, my friend lives in Arlington, VA. His niece is taught in school that the confederacy was right, and that Lincoln was a treasonous warmonger that unjustly invaded the southern states. Yes, school-aged children in the United States are being taught this in the year 2019. 

    As for Trump, I'm still not sure if we'll look back on this like "Oh yeah, remember when Donald Trump was president? That was strange." Or, is Trumpism something that's here to stay? You know how all the republicans kept parroting "Ronald Reagan" during the primary? Is that how it will be 30 years from now? Some crazy politician saying "Well just like the great President Trump once said...."
    That will definitely all depend on who the "winners and losers" are! Though frankly, I would rather read American history texts published by any country BUT America (and Russia!). That will likely provide more accurate accounts of things!
    I'm afraid I do see Trumpism lasting. The way a significant number of Americans are thinking now... that will have a very lasting impact. I think the divide between citizens in America is probably permanent, and I think that is what allows Trumpism to thrive.
    I think what this shows is how malleable people are in their thinking, and how pervasive group think really is.  Point is, you might be right that it will last, but only if there is a similar leader to stoke it.  The right has shown an amazing propensity for falling in line.  But that line could be different in 6 years.  
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,665
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Another thing to consider is who is going to write this history. Thirty or forty years from now, history books that are unfavorable to Trump (and thus, accurate) will likely be cast into the lava that surrounds Empress Ivanka's castle, along with those who wrote them. 

    I'm kidding there of course (well...half-kidding), but "history" is an interesting thing when it comes to who it's written by, and who it's written for. For example, my friend lives in Arlington, VA. His niece is taught in school that the confederacy was right, and that Lincoln was a treasonous warmonger that unjustly invaded the southern states. Yes, school-aged children in the United States are being taught this in the year 2019. 

    As for Trump, I'm still not sure if we'll look back on this like "Oh yeah, remember when Donald Trump was president? That was strange." Or, is Trumpism something that's here to stay? You know how all the republicans kept parroting "Ronald Reagan" during the primary? Is that how it will be 30 years from now? Some crazy politician saying "Well just like the great President Trump once said...."
    That will definitely all depend on who the "winners and losers" are! Though frankly, I would rather read American history texts published by any country BUT America (and Russia!). That will likely provide more accurate accounts of things!
    I'm afraid I do see Trumpism lasting. The way a significant number of Americans are thinking now... that will have a very lasting impact. I think the divide between citizens in America is probably permanent, and I think that is what allows Trumpism to thrive.
    I think what this shows is how malleable people are in their thinking, and how pervasive group think really is.  Point is, you might be right that it will last, but only if there is a similar leader to stoke it.  The right has shown an amazing propensity for falling in line.  But that line could be different in 6 years.  
    I hope you're right!! I admit I'm feeling pretty fucking cynical about it all right now. I don't hold out much hope for America at the moment. I'm actually concerned about Trumpism further seeping into my own country and spreading (it's already happening), so am not exactly expecting it to fizzle.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
    Another thing to consider is who is going to write this history. Thirty or forty years from now, history books that are unfavorable to Trump (and thus, accurate) will likely be cast into the lava that surrounds Empress Ivanka's castle, along with those who wrote them. 

    I'm kidding there of course (well...half-kidding), but "history" is an interesting thing when it comes to who it's written by, and who it's written for. For example, my friend lives in Arlington, VA. His niece is taught in school that the confederacy was right, and that Lincoln was a treasonous warmonger that unjustly invaded the southern states. Yes, school-aged children in the United States are being taught this in the year 2019. 

    As for Trump, I'm still not sure if we'll look back on this like "Oh yeah, remember when Donald Trump was president? That was strange." Or, is Trumpism something that's here to stay? You know how all the republicans kept parroting "Ronald Reagan" during the primary? Is that how it will be 30 years from now? Some crazy politician saying "Well just like the great President Trump once said...."
    That will definitely all depend on who the "winners and losers" are! Though frankly, I would rather read American history texts published by any country BUT America (and Russia!). That will likely provide more accurate accounts of things!
    I'm afraid I do see Trumpism lasting. The way a significant number of Americans are thinking now... that will have a very lasting impact. I think the divide between citizens in America is probably permanent, and I think that is what allows Trumpism to thrive.
    I think what this shows is how malleable people are in their thinking, and how pervasive group think really is.  Point is, you might be right that it will last, but only if there is a similar leader to stoke it.  The right has shown an amazing propensity for falling in line.  But that line could be different in 6 years.  
    I hope you're right!! I admit I'm feeling pretty fucking cynical about it all right now. I don't hold out much hope for America at the moment. I'm actually concerned about Trumpism further seeping into my own country and spreading (it's already happening), so am not exactly expecting it to fizzle.
    I know so many 'conservatives' who are saying something completely opposite than they did six years ago.  Whether it's about free trade, NK, allies, NATO, whatever, it's 180 degrees.  Did they all have a collective epiphany?  Likely not.  They've showed themselves to be unprincipled lemmings.  They are just as susceptible to reverting back to their 'normal' position.  IMO.  
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478

    Conservatives Stunned by Mueller Suggesting Trump Is Not Innocent


    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/conservatives-stunned-by-mueller-implying-trump-not-innocent.html

    It's funny to read about how some of these guys are dealing with Mueller's statement yesterday.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,105
    Stunned I tell ya, just stunned! Suckers.
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,665
    edited May 2019
    dignin said:

    Conservatives Stunned by Mueller Suggesting Trump Is Not Innocent


    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/conservatives-stunned-by-mueller-implying-trump-not-innocent.html

    It's funny to read about how some of these guys are dealing with Mueller's statement yesterday.
    That reads like an Onion headline, lol. I sincerely went and looked all over the page to see if it was a satirical publication.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    PJ_Soul said:
    dignin said:

    Conservatives Stunned by Mueller Suggesting Trump Is Not Innocent


    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/conservatives-stunned-by-mueller-implying-trump-not-innocent.html

    It's funny to read about how some of these guys are dealing with Mueller's statement yesterday.
    That reads like an Onion headline, lol. I sincerely went and looked all over the page to see if it was a satirical publication.
    If only.
  • mfc2006
    mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,491
    dignin said:

    Conservatives Stunned by Mueller Suggesting Trump Is Not Innocent


    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/conservatives-stunned-by-mueller-implying-trump-not-innocent.html

    It's funny to read about how some of these guys are dealing with Mueller's statement yesterday.
    They are the same people that could roll around in the mud and fail to understand why they are covered in dirt.
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  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,610
    How are they stunned?  They all still believe Mueller exonerated him.
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,105
    If it wasn't obvious that CYA Barr is in on the fix, this sure as hell should be. Falling on his sword for his party and conservatism ideology, constitution and checks and balances be damned. Because "everybody dies."

    ‘Everyone dies’: Barr says he’s unconcerned about the toll his job is taking on his reputation

    By John Wagner ● Read more »

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  • Kat
    Kat Posts: 4,956
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    If it wasn't obvious that CYA Barr is in on the fix, this sure as hell should be. Falling on his sword for his party and conservatism ideology, constitution and checks and balances be damned. Because "everybody dies."

    ‘Everyone dies’: Barr says he’s unconcerned about the toll his job is taking on his reputation

    By John Wagner ● Read more »

    Country is in the hands of too many like him. I guess he didn't hear about how it's not only Dems or he doesn't give a damn, but I do.

    From LA Times:
    As of Wednesday, more than 1,000 former federal prosecutors had signed a statement explaining that, in their professional judgment and based on the facts described in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report, President Trump would have been criminally charged with obstruction of justice if he were not the president.

    This public outcry from such a large group of prosecutors — who have served under Republican and Democratic presidents — is unprecedented and indicative of overwhelming expert agreement on the evidence and law supporting charges against Trump.

    Falling down,...not staying down
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,105
    Kat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    If it wasn't obvious that CYA Barr is in on the fix, this sure as hell should be. Falling on his sword for his party and conservatism ideology, constitution and checks and balances be damned. Because "everybody dies."

    ‘Everyone dies’: Barr says he’s unconcerned about the toll his job is taking on his reputation

    By John Wagner ● Read more »

    Country is in the hands of too many like him. I guess he didn't hear about how it's not only Dems or he doesn't give a damn, but I do.

    From LA Times:
    As of Wednesday, more than 1,000 former federal prosecutors had signed a statement explaining that, in their professional judgment and based on the facts described in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report, President Trump would have been criminally charged with obstruction of justice if he were not the president.

    This public outcry from such a large group of prosecutors — who have served under Republican and Democratic presidents — is unprecedented and indicative of overwhelming expert agreement on the evidence and law supporting charges against Trump.

    They're protecting more than Team Trump Treason. And they knew it and did nothing to stop it, just like all those Team trump Treason campaign staffers that didn't contact the FBI when approached by russians leading up to the election. Repub members of the house and senate are complicit and involved in the cover up. I thought lying to congress was a crime?

    NEW YORK – In a stunning reversal, the NRA has admitted to ABC News that it took money from Alexander Torshin, the Russian official and Vladimir Putin ally who is reportedly at the center of an FBI probe into “whether Russian money went to [the] NRA to help Trump” in 2016. The admission follows the NRA’s March 19 letter to Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), in which the NRA’s General Counsel stated that the NRA received no money from “entities or individuals” connected to Russia during 2015-2016.

    ABC’s reporting also comes a week after NPR reported that incoming National Security Advisor John Bolton — who previously headed the NRA’s international affairs subcommittee — recorded a video for Torshin’s Russian gun group praising “a new era of freedom” in Russia, and encouraging Russia’s government to loosen gun laws.

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • vaggar99
    vaggar99 San Diego USA Posts: 3,431
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Kat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    If it wasn't obvious that CYA Barr is in on the fix, this sure as hell should be. Falling on his sword for his party and conservatism ideology, constitution and checks and balances be damned. Because "everybody dies."

    ‘Everyone dies’: Barr says he’s unconcerned about the toll his job is taking on his reputation

    By John Wagner ● Read more »

    Country is in the hands of too many like him. I guess he didn't hear about how it's not only Dems or he doesn't give a damn, but I do.

    From LA Times:
    As of Wednesday, more than 1,000 former federal prosecutors had signed a statement explaining that, in their professional judgment and based on the facts described in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report, President Trump would have been criminally charged with obstruction of justice if he were not the president.

    This public outcry from such a large group of prosecutors — who have served under Republican and Democratic presidents — is unprecedented and indicative of overwhelming expert agreement on the evidence and law supporting charges against Trump.

    They're protecting more than Team Trump Treason. And they knew it and did nothing to stop it, just like all those Team trump Treason campaign staffers that didn't contact the FBI when approached by russians leading up to the election. Repub members of the house and senate are complicit and involved in the cover up. I thought lying to congress was a crime?

    NEW YORK – In a stunning reversal, the NRA has admitted to ABC News that it took money from Alexander Torshin, the Russian official and Vladimir Putin ally who is reportedly at the center of an FBI probe into “whether Russian money went to [the] NRA to help Trump” in 2016. The admission follows the NRA’s March 19 letter to Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), in which the NRA’s General Counsel stated that the NRA received no money from “entities or individuals” connected to Russia during 2015-2016.

    ABC’s reporting also comes a week after NPR reported that incoming National Security Advisor John Bolton — who previously headed the NRA’s international affairs subcommittee — recorded a video for Torshin’s Russian gun group praising “a new era of freedom” in Russia, and encouraging Russia’s government to loosen gun laws.

    they are protecting White Power.  They are protecting the means to continue this pattern.  Fuck them. 
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Could Mueller have said, "if I could, I would have charged him with obstruction of justice"?
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,467
    Meltdown99 said:
    Could Mueller have said, "if I could, I would have charged him with obstruction of justice"?
    That's what the democrats want him to answer if they can make him come and testify. 

    A soundbite like that.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,467
    Mueller: YOU WANT ANSWERS?

    Adam Schiff: WE WANT THE TRUTH!

    Mueller: DONALD J TRUMP IS A GOD DAMN CROOK!
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Meltdown99 said:
    Could Mueller have said, "if I could, I would have charged him with obstruction of justice"?
    No, according to the principles of his role. He and others have said that it would be prejudicial to suggest a concern about lawbreaking but not advance a charge, as it does not allow the individual to answer the charge in court. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf

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