Team Mueller (and Their Report)

PJ_Soul

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

Spiritual_Chaos

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

mickeyrat

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

josevolution

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

mickeyrat

franken has a podcast now.

great episode here.

https://alfranken.com/listen/a-conversation-with-dahlia-lithwick-and-matt-miller

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

franken has a podcast now.

great episode here.

https://alfranken.com/listen/a-conversation-with-dahlia-lithwick-and-matt-miller

I rank Al Franken right up there with Hannity and Maddow...

tempo_n_groove

OK so basically he read his report that everyone lied and no one really cooperated with the investigation and that Trump could not be completely exonerated.

Do I have this correct?

mickeyrat

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

franken has a podcast now.

great episode here.

https://alfranken.com/listen/a-conversation-with-dahlia-lithwick-and-matt-miller

I rank Al Franken right up there with Hannity and Maddow...

how about you have an open mind and give it a listen. just for 45 minutes

OnWis97

When Barr spun the report for his client I thought "what's the point? The whole thing's going to come out." Wow...it really worked. I guess I was naive to believe so many people would not take his summary at face value in the face of a report that contradicted it.  Well-played; good reading of the gullibility of some and the willing cognitive dissonance of others.

Jason P

I’m surprised Mueller didn’t call quitsies/anti-quitsies before announcing he will never talk to another human being again and retreating to his bunker in parts unknown. 

I’m still not sure if Mueller is actually a Trump plant. There is soooo much low handing fruit for the Democrats to go after into the next elections yet they want to keep watering the fruit tree that died months ago.  Mueller basically refilled the watering can for the dead fruit tree.  Pelosi knows this ...

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

franken has a podcast now.

great episode here.

https://alfranken.com/listen/a-conversation-with-dahlia-lithwick-and-matt-miller

I rank Al Franken right up there with Hannity and Maddow...

how about you have an open mind and give it a listen. just for 45 minutes

I'll try it just for you and I will let you know.

Spiritual_Chaos

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mickeyrat said:

franken has a podcast now.

great episode here.

https://alfranken.com/listen/a-conversation-with-dahlia-lithwick-and-matt-miller

I rank Al Franken right up there with Hannity and Maddow...

how about you have an open mind and give it a listen. just for 45 minutes

I'll try it just for you and I will let you know.

The picture of him holding his hands over the sleeping  womans breasts was to degradering and insuliting for me. 

Fuck franken

PJ_Soul

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

Ledbetterman10

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

PJ_Soul

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.

Ledbetterman10

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identifies as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.

I don't know if "Clinton hate" created Trump. She got the third most votes ever, so she couldn't have been that hated. Trump is a creation unto himself. He's basically been campaigning since the 1980's. Not that he was campaigning for anything in particular. Just trying to get himself "over" to use wrestling parlance (he is a WWE hall-of-famer after all). I mentioned reality TV because it's one of earliest forms of media (that I can think of) that has been portrayed as "real," but isn't real at all. That's fine as mindless entertainment (see: WWE), but something like the Apprentice did influence people to think Trump is a smart business man when he's nothing of the sort. Through things like reality TV and social media, people can totally portray themselves in a less-than-factual light and fool people into thinking they're something when they're not. Sometimes it's harmless, like Kanye West convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius, but sometimes it's harmful, like Donald Trump convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius. 

PJ_Soul

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identifies as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.

I don't know if "Clinton hate" created Trump. She got the third most votes ever, so she couldn't have been that hated. Trump is a creation unto himself. He's basically been campaigning since the 1980's. Not that he was campaigning for anything in particular. Just trying to get himself "over" to use wrestling parlance (he is a WWE hall-of-famer after all). I mentioned reality TV because it's one of earliest forms of media (that I can think of) that has been portrayed as "real," but isn't real at all. That's fine as mindless entertainment (see: WWE), but something like the Apprentice did influence people to think Trump is a smart business man when he's nothing of the sort. Through things like reality TV and social media, people can totally portray themselves in a less-than-factual light and fool people into thinking they're something when they're not. Sometimes it's harmless, like Kanye West convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius, but sometimes it's harmful, like Donald Trump convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius. 

There was a ridiculous, distorted level of hate towards Hillary, and so many left leaning people bought into it and voted 3rd party - and some even for Trump - because of it. If it weren't for that, Trump never would have won. That is a fact.

People, including the likes of Oprah, were talking about Trump running for president years and years before reality TV came along, so I don't think reality TV really had much to do with it TBH. I think it's entirely likely that if Trump had run without having ever created the Apprentice, he still would have won, if all other things remained the same.

But anyway, back to the original point: the identifiable moment of the start of America's decline will indeed be when Trump took power. Of course all of human history leading up to that moment created those circumstances - that's a given.

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.

This is all way too unprovable. Too many variables, no uniform definition of ‘decline’, no way of measuring decline except for economic factors (which really don’t indicate the whole story or anything close to it), a mass media that loves to state definitively why something is happening with no justification for why the throngs of other variables ought to be discounted. I don’t understand what it is that compels us to focus on “why”, an unanswerable question in a modern and entangled world. “What should we do from here” seems more relevant and maybe, hopefully, even answerable. 

Ledbetterman10

PJ_Soul said:

There was a ridiculous, distorted level of hate towards Hillary, and so many left leaning people bought into it and voted 3rd party - and some even for Trump - because of it. If it weren't for that, Trump never would have won. That is a fact. 

Maybe they just didn't like her because they didn't like her. It doesn't have to be a matter of people buying into any distorted level of hate. That sounds like another excuse for her. But whatever. She's irrelevant now anyway. Now it's about one of these new democratic candidates being able to do what she failed to do.

PJ_Soul

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

vaggar99 said:

let's face it.  The United States is a facade.  We have bullied our way into world dominance.  At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers.  Trump is merely a symptom of this illness.  We are approaching the stage where left untreated,  this disease will kill us.

I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.

beginning?

Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !

No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.

It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems. 

You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.

This is all way too unprovable. Too many variables, no uniform definition of ‘decline’, no way of measuring decline except for economic factors (which really don’t indicate the whole story or anything close to it), a mass media that loves to state definitively why something is happening with no justification for why the throngs of other variables ought to be discounted. I don’t understand what it is that compels us to focus on “why”, an unanswerable question in a modern and entangled world. “What should we do from here” seems more relevant and maybe, hopefully, even answerable. 

Well obviously it's just my opinion, but I am specifically talking about how this will go down in literal history. Hundreds of years from now this will be recorded in the same manner the decline and fall of all other past civilizations are: academically. We can sit here in the present and say oh, there are so many variables. But that isn't how it pans out in history books. Moments and causes are pretty well defined in that context, including the socio-political and cultural influences that lead to the defining moments. Doing that is far from impossible among historians. There aren't too many questions that end up being unanswerable in that context. Not in the long run.

Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!