Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,887

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,324
    Nevada doing the right thing....


  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,066
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,975
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    What you are talking about in your first paragraph is informed consent, but what these laws have required is misinformed consent. This and similar laws have required doctors to tell women about potential physical and emotional complications for which there is no evidence, all in an attempt to dissuade them from having an abortion. The changes in the law now just require doctors to advise on the potential consequences for which we actually have evidence. 
     
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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,069
    Saw some pro-lifers having a small demonstration in the middle of Sergel Square when I was in Stockholm. 



    Felt very weird. Very Alabama I guess.
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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,634
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    Regarding your first paragraph - I know there are a group of doctors absolutely furious because in many cases they're prohibited from even talking about abortion options, and feel that they are effectively being forced to violate their Hippocratic Oaths (especially when an abortion would prevent almost certain harm to a sick pregnant woman), or to break the law. I can't even fathom what that must be like.
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,825
    edited May 24
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    To your last , I have personal experience with at least the idea of it. It really went a long way to shaping my thoughts on this specific issue.

    Back a lifetime ago when I was 21(?) or so I was in a hook up with this young woman. I need to preface all this by saying I was an active alcoholic at the time and I had little to no respect for her. Real prize I was.  I wasn't physical or anything like that, but I'm certain she could see I had little respect for her.

    One day in the parking lot of a friends apartment, she stated that if she got pregnant by me she would have an abortion without telling me anything before or after. Stopped me cold. I believed then as I still do now that the potential father should at a minimum be heard on the subject. I dont think that its unreasonable to be heard at least.

    What I came away with though, is that whatever a mans involvement, in a committed relationship, casually dating ,one night stand, that ultimately its her decision, full stop. Really there's nothing a man can do in such a situation, if she chooses to keep that info to herself. Once it becomes known , the legal system might be able to be involved but that leads to serious acrimony between the two. and what kind of life would a child have within that dynamic.

    It also led me to conclude (despite how i was living) that I should be sure of who I was sleeping with, that it was at least half my responsibility for protection against unplanned or unwanted pregnancies. If I went into a sexual relationship with someone I didnt have a modicum of trust, should I reallly expect any kind of consideration in that particular situation?


    In the end with that woman , it was a blessing in disguise. I went on to drink to excess for another 17 years or so, which also included the last 10 with a crack addiction. I was in NO position to be a parent.  To this day I have no idea if she was or wasnt ever pregnant by me. Given how I lived for all those years I feel blessed to not have any kids(to my knowledge). I wouldn't want to have put kids through that bullshit.
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,975
    mickeyrat said:
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    posting to hold. more later.
    Is this a libertarian “later” or an actual later? 
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,825
    mickeyrat said:
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    posting to hold. more later.
    Is this a libertarian “later” or an actual later? 
    actual. needed to get home to the laptop. too much type out on my phone and I was entering rush hour in rain....
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  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,066
    So I know why it’s law to tell people about the “physical and mental” issues with having an abortion. I know it’s meant for a different reason, but in reality every doctor that is performing any procedure should be sharing all that type of information. The fact that religious right felt like they had to put it into their law is pretty crazy, but I wouldn’t use a doctor that wouldn’t cover all aspects of any procedure with me.

    I continue to be torn on the ability to have an abortion without the father knowing. I understand the argument, but it just doesn’t feel right. Likely it’s a small amount of cases where that’s a real issue (in my mind) anyhow.
    What you are talking about in your first paragraph is informed consent, but what these laws have required is misinformed consent. This and similar laws have required doctors to tell women about potential physical and emotional complications for which there is no evidence, all in an attempt to dissuade them from having an abortion. The changes in the law now just require doctors to advise on the potential consequences for which we actually have evidence. 
     
    Yup. My terrible writing skills failed to convey that. But yes I understand.


    hippiemom = goodness
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,298

  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,975
    I was thinking yesterday about the idea of "exemptions" for rape and incest, in a practical rather than theoretical way. Just how do those work, anyway? I have not been able to find any clear explanation online in my initial search, and obviously the whole idea seems fraught with problems, particularly given the glacial pace of the legal system.

    Does rape have to be proven in court? That can take years, and we all know that the conviction rate is much less than the rate of likely accurate accusations. Many women do not report being raped - if they find that they're pregnant a few weeks after a rape, will the legal system say that they aren't eligible because it wasn't reported? Does it rest on the rapist to admit the rape? 

    Similarly with incest, many, many victims do not report their abuse. What would a 14 year old pregnant victim have to do to prove that the pregnancy is the result of incest? Contrary to CSI, DNA tests do not provide instant results, and would likely require some sort of cooperation from the abuser or a lengthy legal battle to get a comparative sample. All of this means delay, and the longer an abortion is delayed, the more difficult it becomes to get, until the anti-choice side has achieved its goal of preventing that abortion. 

    I'm hoping that someone knows more about the practicalities of these issues than I do. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,066
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,711
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
    Rape is the most difficult crime to prove/convict.  I suppose there could be some standard of indictability.  But that seems really tricky.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,168
    https://apple.news/Avijsj6YQRw6gzZ7IeXf7Vg
    How long before there’s a violent reaction to this ruling by the prolife folks ...glad the judge put the 🛑 sign up ! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,188
    OnWis97 said:
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
    Rape is the most difficult crime to prove/convict.  I suppose there could be some standard of indictability.  But that seems really tricky.
    It's impossible in this context because abortions have to happen quickly. It isn't possible for the law to establish anything while the need for the abortion is still current. Not unless the rapist or family member decided it was a good idea to commit their crime on film or in front of witnesses.
    In other words, the entire concept of separating victims from any other woman wanting an abortion is fucking ludicrous.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,171
    More news from Thug America  (via The Guardian):

    “Anti-choice individuals and groups have been emboldened by the rhetoric of President Trump, Vice President Pence and other elected officials and we are seeing this play out in more instances of activities meant to intimidate abortion providers and disrupt patient services,” said Katherine Ragsdale, interim president and CEO of NAF, in a statement.

    Trump and other politicians advocating for the restriction of access to abortion have frequently engaged in false and inflammatory rhetoric about the practice, using emotive and inaccurate language such as “infanticide” or “late-term abortion”.





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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,825
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,168
    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1132123623177613312?s=21
    Disgraceful disgusting despicable idiots!
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • dignindignin Posts: 7,191
    mickeyrat said:
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
    I also like the term pro-birth. Because those folks really aren't pro-life, they couldn't give a shit about those kids lives once born.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,825
    dignin said:
    mickeyrat said:
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
    I also like the term pro-birth. Because those folks really aren't pro-life, they couldn't give a shit about those kids lives once born.
    certainly seems that way.  the vocal ones anyway.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 20,112
    I hope no one’s mother, sister, daughter, aunt or friend has to carry to term and give birth.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/abortion-legislation-rape.html
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,168
    Damn as it stands by the end of this week Missouri might be the 1st state to be totally anti abortion 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,188
    edited May 29
    Fucker. If even Democratic governors will signs these things, America's women are fucked (twice).

    Louisiana passed an abortion ban. Its Democratic governor plans to defy his party and sign it.



    BATON ROUGE, La. — In Louisiana on Wednesday, the state legislature passed one of the country’s strictest abortion bans, advancing the bill to its Democratic governor John Bel Edwards, who, like the coterie of conservative executives before him, has said repeatedly he would sign it.

    Louisiana’s is the first of the drumbeat of bans this year to receive the imprimatur of prominent local Democrats, whose support for the controversial legislation has provoked anger from party members nationwide who see it as a betrayal in the battle over abortion rights.

    The Wednesday vote came after an ardent debate over amendments to the bill, including one that would have added an exception to the abortion ban for cases of rape and incest. That change, and others that sought to make the law more lenient, were rejected. After nearly two hours, 79 lawmakers voted to pass the bill, while 23 voted against it.

    Now, Edwards, state Sen. John Milkovich, the Democrat who sponsored the bill, and other antiabortion Democrats have become the unlikely intraparty combatants in a debate that has grown increasingly partisan.

    As the party has shifted left in recent decades, its leaders have increasingly signaled that members who oppose abortion rights are fundamentally out of step with the Democratic platform.

    Since the Reagan presidency, the issue has become increasingly divisive, especially among judicial confirmations, said Sherry Colb, a professor at Cornell Law School. Now, parties tend to use a judge’s stance on abortion as a litmus test to decide whether they’ll support a particular nominee, she said.

    Gov. John Bel Edwards, who has repeatedly bucked national party leaders on abortion rights, is about to do it again. He’s ready to sign legislation that would ban the procedure as early as six weeks of pregnancy, before many women know they are pregnant, when the bill reaches his desk. (Melinda Deslatte/Associated Press)

    But, in Louisiana, antiabortion sentiment has long been part of the cultural milieu. The issue isn’t nearly as divisive as it is on the national stage.

    The legislation, a so-called “heartbeat" ban, resembles other bills passed this year in deep red states that could outlaw abortions after an ultrasound is able to detect the electric pulsing of what will become a fetus’s heart, a milestone that can come at six weeks — before some women even know they’re pregnant.

    [Everything you need to know about the abortion ban news]

    If signed, the six-week ban would join a number of antiabortion laws already on the state’s books, many of which made it there with bipartisan support.

    In 2006, a Democratic state senator sponsored a “trigger law” that would automatically ban abortions, except when birth threatens a mother’s life, in the event that the Supreme Court ever overturns its Roe v. Wade decision. Gov. Kathleen Blanco, also a Democrat, signed it into law, ensuring Louisiana would be among the first states to outlaw abortion should the high court reverse course.

    The state also prohibits public funding for abortions, and most private insurers there don’t cover them, which means the procedure can be costly. Other laws, like requiring women undergo an ultrasound and submit to a mandatory, pre-scripted counseling session, have also made abortions less accessible, particularly for those who must travel to a clinic from afar.

    Another measure making its way through the legislature would let the public vote on a constitutional amendment that would prevent the state from protecting the right to an abortion or requiring funding for it.

    The bill’s sponsor, State Rep. Katrina Jackson, another Democrat, said in an interview with The Post before the vote that she plans to support the six-week ban, too. Her party’s preferences are no match for her own deeply-held religious beliefs.

    “I don’t believe in being a cookie-cutter legislator, which means, you say, ‘Oh, what’s the party doing?’ she said. “When you have a sincerely held belief, you stand for that belief. That doesn’t mean you abandon your party. That doesn’t mean that you abandon anyone. That means that you understand that a one-size-fits-all approach to legislature doesn’t work.”

    Discussion of a new ban and the laws already in action have "made Louisiana an extremely hostile place” for women trying to obtain abortions, and for doctors trying to provide them, said Michelle Erenberg, the executive director of Lift Louisiana, which advocates for women’s health and abortion access.

    The state’s three remaining abortion providers have already begun receiving calls from women asking whether abortion is still legal, she said.

    “Things have become incrementally worse, and then suddenly catastrophic,” said Katie Caldwell, the clinic coordinator at Women’s Health Care Center in New Orleans.

    The ban, should Edwards sign it, won’t go into effect right away — and may even end up languishing for years in legal purgatory. The will only take effect if a federal court upholds a near identical ban in neighboring Mississippi. Just like other bans, Mississippi’s has faced vigorous legal challenges. On Friday, a judge temporarily blocked it.

    And earlier this year, another federal judge halted Kentucky’s similar six-week measure, questioning the law’s constitutionality. All the bans are part of a barrage of new restrictions — largely from states in the South and the Midwest — championed by religious conservatives and meant to spark a court fight that would challenge Roe, which legalized abortion nationwide in 1973.

    (continued in next post)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,188

    Before any of the cases makes it to the Supreme Court, an appeals court judge would have to defy federal precedent and uphold one of the bans. The process could take years, and on Tuesday, they issued a compromise decision on an Indiana law that signaled they might proceed slowly on other abortion cases.

    The Alabama state Senate passed the country’s most restrictive abortion legislation May 14 that could set a precedent for other legislative bodies. 

    In Louisiana, the nation is seeing some of the last remaining “pro-life” Democrats, a class of politician that has become obscure in recent decades.

    Edwards has been a high-profile member of the cohort since he was elected governor in 2015. Like other antiabortion Democrats, he likes to say he’s “pro-life for the whole life,” because he opposes abortion but supports policies like Medicaid expansion and a higher minimum wage.

    The Army veteran and devout Catholic has said he traces his long-held views on abortion to his faith — and so do many of his constituents, he said.

    “That’s the way I was raised,” Edwards said in an October 2018 episode of his monthly radio show. “I know that for many in the national party, on the national scene, that’s not a good fit. But I will tell you, here in Louisiana, I speak and meet with Democrats who are pro-life every single day.”

    But one of Edwards’ fellow Democrats, Rep. Royce Duplessis, disagrees with his governor’s stance. In an interview, he said the government has no right to interfere in decisions about a woman’s health care and that this bill “absolutely goes too far.” He opposes it, he said, and it wasn’t about the national party’s marching orders.

    “It has nothing to do with party for me,” he said. “It has nothing to do with party lines for me. I tend to stay consistent with what I believe, and that’s respect for women, respect for women’s health.”

    Countrywide, Democratic voters are more in line with Duplessis than with antiabortion lawmakers like Edwards, Milkovich and Jackson.

    Today, more than two-thirds of Democrats believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, a number that has increased by 20 percent since the mid ’90s, according to Pew Research Center. But this shift has left some more conservative lawmakers and voters, whom the party had long welcomed, feeling alienated.

    It’s yet another example of phenomenon so often observed it has become a cliche: the country’s political parties are more polarized, the electorate more divided.

    “It’s almost like the Democratic Party is this club, and there are rules to this club. And you can’t violate the rules,” said Colb, the professor who clerked for Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, the author of the Roe decision. “There’s a sense that we’re not going to tolerate intolerance.”


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,324
    Add Louisiana to the list of states that will not be getting my tourist dollars.

    Abortion should always be...

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal
    Safe
    A womans  choice/decision 
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,168
    Add Louisiana to the list of states that will not be getting my tourist dollars.

    Abortion should always be...

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal
    Safe
    A womans  choice/decision 
    Yep I’m crossing all the states off ever visiting them and spending any $ there  ! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,825

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,324
    Good news.....

    Judge's order means Missouri clinic can keep doing abortions https://finance.yahoo.com/news/judge-weighing-missouri-abortion-clinics-license-141442587.html
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