Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    I was thinking yesterday about the idea of "exemptions" for rape and incest, in a practical rather than theoretical way. Just how do those work, anyway? I have not been able to find any clear explanation online in my initial search, and obviously the whole idea seems fraught with problems, particularly given the glacial pace of the legal system.

    Does rape have to be proven in court? That can take years, and we all know that the conviction rate is much less than the rate of likely accurate accusations. Many women do not report being raped - if they find that they're pregnant a few weeks after a rape, will the legal system say that they aren't eligible because it wasn't reported? Does it rest on the rapist to admit the rape? 

    Similarly with incest, many, many victims do not report their abuse. What would a 14 year old pregnant victim have to do to prove that the pregnancy is the result of incest? Contrary to CSI, DNA tests do not provide instant results, and would likely require some sort of cooperation from the abuser or a lengthy legal battle to get a comparative sample. All of this means delay, and the longer an abortion is delayed, the more difficult it becomes to get, until the anti-choice side has achieved its goal of preventing that abortion. 

    I'm hoping that someone knows more about the practicalities of these issues than I do. 
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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,838
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
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  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,610
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
    Rape is the most difficult crime to prove/convict.  I suppose there could be some standard of indictability.  But that seems really tricky.
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  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,667
    https://apple.news/Avijsj6YQRw6gzZ7IeXf7Vg
    How long before there’s a violent reaction to this ruling by the prolife folks ...glad the judge put the 🛑 sign up ! 
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,692
    OnWis97 said:
    Good question. In my mind I was always just taking someone’s word for it...but I doubt it’s that simple. Though it should be. And then if somehow proven false in the future...I would guess you’d face a lot of criminal charges.

    But now you got me thinking...what is the “proof”???
    Rape is the most difficult crime to prove/convict.  I suppose there could be some standard of indictability.  But that seems really tricky.
    It's impossible in this context because abortions have to happen quickly. It isn't possible for the law to establish anything while the need for the abortion is still current. Not unless the rapist or family member decided it was a good idea to commit their crime on film or in front of witnesses.
    In other words, the entire concept of separating victims from any other woman wanting an abortion is fucking ludicrous.
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    More news from Thug America  (via The Guardian):

    “Anti-choice individuals and groups have been emboldened by the rhetoric of President Trump, Vice President Pence and other elected officials and we are seeing this play out in more instances of activities meant to intimidate abortion providers and disrupt patient services,” said Katherine Ragsdale, interim president and CEO of NAF, in a statement.

    Trump and other politicians advocating for the restriction of access to abortion have frequently engaged in false and inflammatory rhetoric about the practice, using emotive and inaccurate language such as “infanticide” or “late-term abortion”.





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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,502
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
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  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,667
    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1132123623177613312?s=21
    Disgraceful disgusting despicable idiots!
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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    mickeyrat said:
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
    I also like the term pro-birth. Because those folks really aren't pro-life, they couldn't give a shit about those kids lives once born.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,502
    dignin said:
    mickeyrat said:
    epiphany.

    "choice" lends an air of whim or frivolity.

    I am declaring I am Pro-Autonomy.
    I also like the term pro-birth. Because those folks really aren't pro-life, they couldn't give a shit about those kids lives once born.
    certainly seems that way.  the vocal ones anyway.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,325
    I hope no one’s mother, sister, daughter, aunt or friend has to carry to term and give birth.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/abortion-legislation-rape.html
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  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,667
    Damn as it stands by the end of this week Missouri might be the 1st state to be totally anti abortion 
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,692
    edited May 2019
    Fucker. If even Democratic governors will signs these things, America's women are fucked (twice).

    Louisiana passed an abortion ban. Its Democratic governor plans to defy his party and sign it.



    BATON ROUGE, La. — In Louisiana on Wednesday, the state legislature passed one of the country’s strictest abortion bans, advancing the bill to its Democratic governor John Bel Edwards, who, like the coterie of conservative executives before him, has said repeatedly he would sign it.

    Louisiana’s is the first of the drumbeat of bans this year to receive the imprimatur of prominent local Democrats, whose support for the controversial legislation has provoked anger from party members nationwide who see it as a betrayal in the battle over abortion rights.

    The Wednesday vote came after an ardent debate over amendments to the bill, including one that would have added an exception to the abortion ban for cases of rape and incest. That change, and others that sought to make the law more lenient, were rejected. After nearly two hours, 79 lawmakers voted to pass the bill, while 23 voted against it.

    Now, Edwards, state Sen. John Milkovich, the Democrat who sponsored the bill, and other antiabortion Democrats have become the unlikely intraparty combatants in a debate that has grown increasingly partisan.

    As the party has shifted left in recent decades, its leaders have increasingly signaled that members who oppose abortion rights are fundamentally out of step with the Democratic platform.

    Since the Reagan presidency, the issue has become increasingly divisive, especially among judicial confirmations, said Sherry Colb, a professor at Cornell Law School. Now, parties tend to use a judge’s stance on abortion as a litmus test to decide whether they’ll support a particular nominee, she said.

    Gov. John Bel Edwards, who has repeatedly bucked national party leaders on abortion rights, is about to do it again. He’s ready to sign legislation that would ban the procedure as early as six weeks of pregnancy, before many women know they are pregnant, when the bill reaches his desk. (Melinda Deslatte/Associated Press)

    But, in Louisiana, antiabortion sentiment has long been part of the cultural milieu. The issue isn’t nearly as divisive as it is on the national stage.

    The legislation, a so-called “heartbeat" ban, resembles other bills passed this year in deep red states that could outlaw abortions after an ultrasound is able to detect the electric pulsing of what will become a fetus’s heart, a milestone that can come at six weeks — before some women even know they’re pregnant.

    [Everything you need to know about the abortion ban news]

    If signed, the six-week ban would join a number of antiabortion laws already on the state’s books, many of which made it there with bipartisan support.

    In 2006, a Democratic state senator sponsored a “trigger law” that would automatically ban abortions, except when birth threatens a mother’s life, in the event that the Supreme Court ever overturns its Roe v. Wade decision. Gov. Kathleen Blanco, also a Democrat, signed it into law, ensuring Louisiana would be among the first states to outlaw abortion should the high court reverse course.

    The state also prohibits public funding for abortions, and most private insurers there don’t cover them, which means the procedure can be costly. Other laws, like requiring women undergo an ultrasound and submit to a mandatory, pre-scripted counseling session, have also made abortions less accessible, particularly for those who must travel to a clinic from afar.

    Another measure making its way through the legislature would let the public vote on a constitutional amendment that would prevent the state from protecting the right to an abortion or requiring funding for it.

    The bill’s sponsor, State Rep. Katrina Jackson, another Democrat, said in an interview with The Post before the vote that she plans to support the six-week ban, too. Her party’s preferences are no match for her own deeply-held religious beliefs.

    “I don’t believe in being a cookie-cutter legislator, which means, you say, ‘Oh, what’s the party doing?’ she said. “When you have a sincerely held belief, you stand for that belief. That doesn’t mean you abandon your party. That doesn’t mean that you abandon anyone. That means that you understand that a one-size-fits-all approach to legislature doesn’t work.”

    Discussion of a new ban and the laws already in action have "made Louisiana an extremely hostile place” for women trying to obtain abortions, and for doctors trying to provide them, said Michelle Erenberg, the executive director of Lift Louisiana, which advocates for women’s health and abortion access.

    The state’s three remaining abortion providers have already begun receiving calls from women asking whether abortion is still legal, she said.

    “Things have become incrementally worse, and then suddenly catastrophic,” said Katie Caldwell, the clinic coordinator at Women’s Health Care Center in New Orleans.

    The ban, should Edwards sign it, won’t go into effect right away — and may even end up languishing for years in legal purgatory. The will only take effect if a federal court upholds a near identical ban in neighboring Mississippi. Just like other bans, Mississippi’s has faced vigorous legal challenges. On Friday, a judge temporarily blocked it.

    And earlier this year, another federal judge halted Kentucky’s similar six-week measure, questioning the law’s constitutionality. All the bans are part of a barrage of new restrictions — largely from states in the South and the Midwest — championed by religious conservatives and meant to spark a court fight that would challenge Roe, which legalized abortion nationwide in 1973.

    (continued in next post)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,692

    Before any of the cases makes it to the Supreme Court, an appeals court judge would have to defy federal precedent and uphold one of the bans. The process could take years, and on Tuesday, they issued a compromise decision on an Indiana law that signaled they might proceed slowly on other abortion cases.

    The Alabama state Senate passed the country’s most restrictive abortion legislation May 14 that could set a precedent for other legislative bodies. 

    In Louisiana, the nation is seeing some of the last remaining “pro-life” Democrats, a class of politician that has become obscure in recent decades.

    Edwards has been a high-profile member of the cohort since he was elected governor in 2015. Like other antiabortion Democrats, he likes to say he’s “pro-life for the whole life,” because he opposes abortion but supports policies like Medicaid expansion and a higher minimum wage.

    The Army veteran and devout Catholic has said he traces his long-held views on abortion to his faith — and so do many of his constituents, he said.

    “That’s the way I was raised,” Edwards said in an October 2018 episode of his monthly radio show. “I know that for many in the national party, on the national scene, that’s not a good fit. But I will tell you, here in Louisiana, I speak and meet with Democrats who are pro-life every single day.”

    But one of Edwards’ fellow Democrats, Rep. Royce Duplessis, disagrees with his governor’s stance. In an interview, he said the government has no right to interfere in decisions about a woman’s health care and that this bill “absolutely goes too far.” He opposes it, he said, and it wasn’t about the national party’s marching orders.

    “It has nothing to do with party for me,” he said. “It has nothing to do with party lines for me. I tend to stay consistent with what I believe, and that’s respect for women, respect for women’s health.”

    Countrywide, Democratic voters are more in line with Duplessis than with antiabortion lawmakers like Edwards, Milkovich and Jackson.

    Today, more than two-thirds of Democrats believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, a number that has increased by 20 percent since the mid ’90s, according to Pew Research Center. But this shift has left some more conservative lawmakers and voters, whom the party had long welcomed, feeling alienated.

    It’s yet another example of phenomenon so often observed it has become a cliche: the country’s political parties are more polarized, the electorate more divided.

    “It’s almost like the Democratic Party is this club, and there are rules to this club. And you can’t violate the rules,” said Colb, the professor who clerked for Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, the author of the Roe decision. “There’s a sense that we’re not going to tolerate intolerance.”


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,439
    Add Louisiana to the list of states that will not be getting my tourist dollars.

    Abortion should always be...

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal
    Safe
    A womans  choice/decision 
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,667
    Add Louisiana to the list of states that will not be getting my tourist dollars.

    Abortion should always be...

    Affordable 
    Available on demand 
    Legal
    Safe
    A womans  choice/decision 
    Yep I’m crossing all the states off ever visiting them and spending any $ there  ! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,502

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,439
    Good news.....

    Judge's order means Missouri clinic can keep doing abortions https://finance.yahoo.com/news/judge-weighing-missouri-abortion-clinics-license-141442587.html