The Democratic Candidates

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  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Need someone who doesn't have one foot in the grave.
    Age discrimination alive and well in America. 
    Sorry, but this is a lazy and relatively brainless statement. 
    We covered this previously - but there are lots of posts so we can do it again, if you would like.

    How about the fact that if I am 34 I cannot be POTUS?  Where is the Ageism cry against that?

    Age should be a viable consideration.  Would you elect someone who was 102?  12?



    Is it fair to openly say a woman is unqualified, or a black or a hispanic?

    Some 55 yo's have trouble with memory. I'd say Bernies mind is probably sharper than yours. Definitely mine (I'm about Stone's age FWIW )

    How can age possibly factor into these examples?

    ....
    "As directed by the Constitution, apresidential candidate must be a natural born citizen of the United States, a resident for 14 years, and 35 years of age or older."



    I hear your point -- and I have met and spoken with Bernie on 2 occasions, years apart from one another.  Not a fan of his, politically, but think he is a pretty interesting guy and is very sharp. 

    Bringing up the point about a person's gender or ethnicity does not apply, here.  (In my opinion)

    Why not approach the discussion from this pov:
    The constitution is ageist.  Why can a 34 year old not be POTUS?  Is it fair to openly say a woman is unqualified, or a minority?
    Some 36 year olds have (insert criticism here) - and some 78 year olds have (insert same criticism) - why is it OK for the constitution to set an age mimunum but not an age maximum.

    There is already ageism at work when it comes to POTUS qualifications -- so why would it be discriminatory for a person of some intelligence to want to discuss the realities that go along with a person's mental and physical capabilities between the ages of 78-86, discuss the realities of the average changes of a person's mental and physical capabilities between the age of 78 and then 86, the incredible demands that a job such as POTUS puts on a person's mental and physical well-being, and then consider that it is quite possibly a poor idea to elect a person who is 78?

    I laugh at the idea that I am discriminating.  If that is by the definition, fine.  I own it, but I do not think there is anything beyond good common sense behind asking such questions.  I do not buy that it folds into the idea that "a woman, or a black or a hispanic" is unqualified.
    I actually did not say that Joe is unqualified.  I said there should be a person who is nominated who does not have one foot in the grave...which is 'silly' for old as hell.  I do think Joe as a person, is one of the most qualified people we could consider.  I will vote for Joe if it comes down to Joe vs. The Grand Wizard Trump. 

    To me dismissing a person automatically whether due to their age, ethnicity or gender are all forms of discrimination. 

    Now if Biden continues to stutter in the same manner as he did in his China comments I  agree attacking his mental capacity would be fair.  But to judge him solely on his age is wrong. He deserves the chance to prove that he is up  to the task. 

    The age requirement might be unfair but it is in the constitution. The only way around that is to amend it. If Biden does get the nomination it would be pretty exciting if he selected Beto or mayor Pete for VP
    No one is dismissing, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Everybody chooses the factors that matter to them when casting a vote (variables), and decides how much each of those factors matter to them (weightings). Aging comes with pros and cons, and if we're saying no to 'discriminating' by the above definition, that has to go both ways. If we're going to say no to factoring in the correlation between age and poor health, we should also say no to factoring in the correlation between age and wisdom, age and ability to navigate the system, age and connections, etc. I think it would be pretty unwise to omit all of these factors in our internal decision-making, as this would actually be choosing an uninformed decision over an informed one. 
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,705
    Any Democrat over the Baffoon !
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    Unconscious Bias is Running for President
    On Elizabeth Warren and the False Problem of "Likeability"



    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    njnancy said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Eh.  You are making it about an attack on Joe for his age but it is a question about the soundness of a decision to elect anyone that is 78 to the position.
    Joe could sound perfect today (instead of how he sounded on China) and I would make the same question.
    In all fairness, Biden has just joined the race. All of the other candidates were not polished at the beginning of their runs. Some of them had a hard time answering questions and getting together a cohesive message; including the young ones. Even seasoned politicos need to adjust to the pace of the crazy Presidential campaign road. 

    I'm not going to judge Biden from a snippet taken out of a speech. I didn't see the whole speech and all of the candidates took some time to get their message together, get into the flow of the race and find their best self. Because he came into the race late, most of the other candidates are in the flow of the campaign trail and Biden is going to look less polished for a short time. Regardless of age, it's a grind that takes getting used to. 

     If he never works out the kinks, then I can assess him according to his appeal, not his age. I, personally, don't have a problem with the ages of the candidates, whether very young or older (impending deaths of people in their late 60's and 70's, or whatever age, is a bit too much for me). If anything happens to any of the candidates that becomes the nominee, there is a process. And if someone develops dementia suddenly, there is an Amendment for that).

     I will see how things progress over the next couple of weeks. The first debate is coming up and that will be a good judge of sharpness and capability. For me.
    Bingo!  This is called "Facebook news".
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,887
    PJ_Soul said:
    Unconscious Bias is Running for President
    On Elizabeth Warren and the False Problem of "Likeability"



    I read it.  Can't say I completely agree but I'm thinking.  
    Although this counters every other allegedly educated assessment that in 2016 the media was bias for Hillary against Sanders and Trump.  Both of these theories cannot be true. 

    Btw, her initial math dating 11% of white male Democrats voted for Hillary is wrong.  Its 22% using her methodology,  which is flawed. She ignores independents.  Including them,  it rises to 31%. 
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Everyone should write in Hilary name...make her a write-in president...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,978
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Eh.  You are making it about an attack on Joe for his age but it is a question about the soundness of a decision to elect anyone that is 78 to the position.
    Joe could sound perfect today (instead of how he sounded on China) and I would make the same question.

    If Biden appears healthy at 78 he would be expected to easily outlive his 4 year term. Voters would then have the opportunity to decide again if he is healthy enough for the job. I sense at 82 voters would be significantly wary but I'd hope they judge him on how he campaigns and his experience. 

    I also sense Biden is interested in one term.

    Not sure I am familiar with the concept of judging a candidate by his age yet it not be discrimination 
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,836
    I guess we can agree to disagree 
    (I also would question the statement that just being "easily expected to outlive his 4 year term" is good enough - for me, that isn't.)
    I am happy to wear the discrimination badge of horror if it means that I am using all available facts to draw reasonable conclusions when comparing two (or more) candidates 
    Isn't that what we all try to do?

    Still voting for Old Joe over Old Grand Wizard Donny if it comes to it 
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    edited May 2019
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Eh.  You are making it about an attack on Joe for his age but it is a question about the soundness of a decision to elect anyone that is 78 to the position.
    Joe could sound perfect today (instead of how he sounded on China) and I would make the same question.

    If Biden appears healthy at 78 he would be expected to easily outlive his 4 year term. Voters would then have the opportunity to decide again if he is healthy enough for the job. I sense at 82 voters would be significantly wary but I'd hope they judge him on how he campaigns and his experience. 

    I also sense Biden is interested in one term.

    Not sure I am familiar with the concept of judging a candidate by his age yet it not be discrimination 
    Did you see my comment above? I tried to express why I feel judging a candidate by his age is not discrimination, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    benjs said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Eh.  You are making it about an attack on Joe for his age but it is a question about the soundness of a decision to elect anyone that is 78 to the position.
    Joe could sound perfect today (instead of how he sounded on China) and I would make the same question.

    If Biden appears healthy at 78 he would be expected to easily outlive his 4 year term. Voters would then have the opportunity to decide again if he is healthy enough for the job. I sense at 82 voters would be significantly wary but I'd hope they judge him on how he campaigns and his experience. 

    I also sense Biden is interested in one term.

    Not sure I am familiar with the concept of judging a candidate by his age yet it not be discrimination 
    Did you see my comment above? I tried to express why I feel judging a candidate by his age is not discrimination, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
    I understand what you and Brett are saying.  Age is part of the whole equation that you use when you are vetting what youse guys want in your number one candidate. I don't use age as part of my decision process, but that doesn't make your decision process invalid. Perhaps if you can get Brett to lay off the one foot in the grave comments it will help. :smirk: (not holding my breath) But I do understand what you are saying. No pun intended but you are concerned there might be a Weekend at Bernie's situation on Inauguration Day, or others might factor that in and choose the evil one.

    I don't believe you are being prejudiced. Just prudent. Because we disagree doesn't make either of us wrong. 

    Now, I know that mostly everyone on here does not think this way. But perhaps this conversation about how we perceive factors in decision making can help some of you understand that there are people in American who, when evaluating what they want in a President, find being a female to be a disqualifying factor. Proof is in the pictures of the 45 Presidents and Vice Presidents.  Perhaps the age discussion might be able to shed a different light on that topic,  Or maybe not, but I hope it does. 

    This discussion has actually been mostly civil and has created understanding for some of us. We all be thinking with our different brain, have different priorities and concerns but most importantly are putting a lot of thought into this process. 

    I think that I can have a negative knee jerk response to anything that seems to be dismissing a segment of society because of how I feel about women & other groups being basically shut out of places of power. In the future, I will check if my emotional thinking is overtaking my intellectual thinking. I'll try, at least. 

     I have no illusions, especially after the backlash to Obama, which seemed like such a wonderful step forward, that America is ready to embrace a woman as Commander in Chief. I hope I'm wrong, but look at the horrible course (in)correction America took after Obama. We can be such a forward thinking country but too much too fast freaks out a portion of the country, I think that is obvious to most of us. I mean, freaking Donald Trump is President. While many people were feeling great about social progress, other people's heads were exploding. We are a complicated group of citizens. 
     
    Anyway, this has been a good conversation and will continue to be. It made me think outside my self and that changed my view of other's thinking,  to a certain degree. I like that.  I like when people stand by their beliefs and can debate without demeaning, but with the intent of raising understanding. That's the best stuff that happens here. 
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,320
    Biden's hot topics center on Nazis, Jim Crow laws, and President Cleveland's controversial proposed expansion into the Oklahoma territories.  Very exciting.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,435
    Jason P said:
    Biden's hot topics center on Nazis, Jim Crow laws, and President Cleveland's controversial proposed expansion into the Oklahoma territories.  Very exciting.
    How so? Maybe you could expound on sleepy joe and his approval of the OK territory. Speaking of which, maybe we could annex it to Mexico with Texas?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Jason P said:
    Biden's hot topics center on Nazis, Jim Crow laws, and President Cleveland's controversial proposed expansion into the Oklahoma territories.  Very exciting.
    How so? Maybe you could expound on sleepy joe and his approval of the OK territory. Speaking of which, maybe we could annex it to Mexico with Texas?
    Am I allowed to vote yet? Shit!
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,435
    njnancy said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Jason P said:
    Biden's hot topics center on Nazis, Jim Crow laws, and President Cleveland's controversial proposed expansion into the Oklahoma territories.  Very exciting.
    How so? Maybe you could expound on sleepy joe and his approval of the OK territory. Speaking of which, maybe we could annex it to Mexico with Texas?
    Am I allowed to vote yet? Shit!
    Well, are you registered? Better check trice. Got ID? Better make sure it’s acceptable. Got an original birth certificate? You might need it.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • njnancy
    njnancy Posts: 5,096
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    njnancy said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Jason P said:
    Biden's hot topics center on Nazis, Jim Crow laws, and President Cleveland's controversial proposed expansion into the Oklahoma territories.  Very exciting.
    How so? Maybe you could expound on sleepy joe and his approval of the OK territory. Speaking of which, maybe we could annex it to Mexico with Texas?
    Am I allowed to vote yet? Shit!
    Well, are you registered? Better check trice. Got ID? Better make sure it’s acceptable. Got an original birth certificate? You might need it.
    With the issues that Jason was saying were Biden's focus, I was more worried that we had traveled back in time (maybe to when America was great?) and women weren't allowed to vote yet. 

    It will be interesting  if executive orders will be penned to allow gun licenses but not driver's licenses or, god forbid, student ID's as forms of identification. I have no idea what happened to my voter registration card, probably disintegrated. The government should mail every registered voter a new one. That would be helpful, so forget that idea. 
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    njnancy said:
    benjs said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Eh.  You are making it about an attack on Joe for his age but it is a question about the soundness of a decision to elect anyone that is 78 to the position.
    Joe could sound perfect today (instead of how he sounded on China) and I would make the same question.

    If Biden appears healthy at 78 he would be expected to easily outlive his 4 year term. Voters would then have the opportunity to decide again if he is healthy enough for the job. I sense at 82 voters would be significantly wary but I'd hope they judge him on how he campaigns and his experience. 

    I also sense Biden is interested in one term.

    Not sure I am familiar with the concept of judging a candidate by his age yet it not be discrimination 
    Did you see my comment above? I tried to express why I feel judging a candidate by his age is not discrimination, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
    I understand what you and Brett are saying.  Age is part of the whole equation that you use when you are vetting what youse guys want in your number one candidate. I don't use age as part of my decision process, but that doesn't make your decision process invalid. Perhaps if you can get Brett to lay off the one foot in the grave comments it will help. :smirk: (not holding my breath) But I do understand what you are saying. No pun intended but you are concerned there might be a Weekend at Bernie's situation on Inauguration Day, or others might factor that in and choose the evil one.

    I don't believe you are being prejudiced. Just prudent. Because we disagree doesn't make either of us wrong. 

    Now, I know that mostly everyone on here does not think this way. But perhaps this conversation about how we perceive factors in decision making can help some of you understand that there are people in American who, when evaluating what they want in a President, find being a female to be a disqualifying factor. Proof is in the pictures of the 45 Presidents and Vice Presidents.  Perhaps the age discussion might be able to shed a different light on that topic,  Or maybe not, but I hope it does. 

    This discussion has actually been mostly civil and has created understanding for some of us. We all be thinking with our different brain, have different priorities and concerns but most importantly are putting a lot of thought into this process. 

    I think that I can have a negative knee jerk response to anything that seems to be dismissing a segment of society because of how I feel about women & other groups being basically shut out of places of power. In the future, I will check if my emotional thinking is overtaking my intellectual thinking. I'll try, at least. 

     I have no illusions, especially after the backlash to Obama, which seemed like such a wonderful step forward, that America is ready to embrace a woman as Commander in Chief. I hope I'm wrong, but look at the horrible course (in)correction America took after Obama. We can be such a forward thinking country but too much too fast freaks out a portion of the country, I think that is obvious to most of us. I mean, freaking Donald Trump is President. While many people were feeling great about social progress, other people's heads were exploding. We are a complicated group of citizens. 
     
    Anyway, this has been a good conversation and will continue to be. It made me think outside my self and that changed my view of other's thinking,  to a certain degree. I like that.  I like when people stand by their beliefs and can debate without demeaning, but with the intent of raising understanding. That's the best stuff that happens here. 
    Nancy, thanks so much for taking them time to write this out, nuance and explanation and all!

    What I'll say is that there are different factors, and some are valid, others are invalid, but it's up to us internally to check those factors to decide whether they are worth existing as factors, and whether they deserve the weightings our minds naturally give them. That's where the unconscious bias against females, against age, etc. come into play.

    I don't believe in protecting factors that haven't been self-checked, but I'm also not naive enough to think that people do a good enough job questioning their underlaying assumptions before acting on them. In that way, I feel you're correct that there can still exist discrimination, and this needs to be dealt with.

    I guess to take my comment above and expand on it further, I would say that as long as a factor can be logically explained how it will impact job performance, a voter can use it without acting discriminatorily. If a factor can't (or hasn't been attempted to) be logically explained, then a voter is almost always participating in discrimination through their own unconscious bias (and thanks to PJ_Soul for posting that article on it, which I learned a lot from). 

    One last thing - you mentioned your emotional thinking and your intellectual thinking. I really believe both are massively important and can't exist that well without each other, and that if you use your intellectual thinking enough, you inevitably get right back to emotional thinking. I help my team make their work lives better by working with them to understand and improve process, implement helpful and easy tools, and provide avenues for growth and leadership training and opportunities. For anyone who helps people on a regular basis (which my gut says could be everyone on here), I'm sure we've all seen how thinking emotionally is the only way to connect with a person or a team to establish that trust to let you help or teach them something new. Without it, that's a non-starter.
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    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,836
    Good points.
    Nancy, I do believe that some (many?) Americans do indeed think being a woman is a big factor in their evaluation of a candidate.
    No fixing stupid, as my dear old dad used to say.

    One foot in the grave is here to stay!
    (If it truly bothers you u am happy to retire it....I feel it makes the point with a little humor.  I get that gallows humor isn't for all.  No fucking way I'm making 78, myself)
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  • Hi!
    Hi! Posts: 3,095
    Lol
    Best campaign sign ever?

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  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,320
    the devil put dinosaurs here
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Hi!
    Hi! Posts: 3,095

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