Have we lost the ability to engage in public discourse/ reasonable debate?

cincybearcat said:

So I think perhaps part of the problem are statements like "most of the right...human decency" and "anyone with half a brain..." thinks like me...

I think statements like that ignore the potential of the opposing or even just differing voice.  They look to try and make that differing voice stupid or even keep that differing voice from speaking up.

Sometimes it is the case though. It's not like every opinion or viewpoint deserves respect, and not every differing voice has potential to be anything but stupid. It's only the right to hold an opinion that automatically deserves respect (at least most of the time), and there is no way anyone here can ever keep someone else from speaking up.

Meltdown99 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion.  There has never been a time.  People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...

Are you blindly sticking with your team of naysayers no matter what on this topic then?

You have also proven my point.  I just made an observation and you continue with a personal jab.  

he didn't prove your point in the slightest. you missed his point. you stated "people have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what". so does that mean you are sticking to your team as well by making this statement?

I do not have a team duh.  Double duh, I have voted for all 4 political parties in Canada.  WTF is the matter with you, its just general statement.  And most people stick with their team...I don't.  Have you paid attention at all?  I think most politicians are corrupt and crooked.

Fuck some of you people can twist shit up into a knot without reason...and sure as hell don't need to comment on everything I say.  I don't agree, then move the fuck on...are you capable?  Or do you just like piling on because that makes you feel good.  I'll go at you all day if you want.  One minute you are full drama, my nerves can't take this place to picking arguments...make up your fucking mind...

Yeah, conversations like this. This is the kind of thing ruining this forum.

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I personally think the main problem here that didn't used to exist so much is simply people being way more mean and much more willing to throw personal insults and to demean others on a completely personal, one-on-one level, and then people reacting to it. I think dialogue would go just fine no matter how much we all disagreed with each other's views if the meanness and snark and constant pestering and so-called sarcasm (insults in poor disguises) would go away. There is altogether too much actual personal dislike here, being shared way too openly, and it's just rude.

this place was way "meaner" a long time ago. then it went pay to post and it weeded out most of the assholes. the mods went into overdrive. many of the assholes have been banned or just left. some still remain. 

as cincy pointed out, many people leave so little room for discussion that it gets frustrating. 

I do find it interesting, your entire post seems to go in direct contradiction to a previous post where you said that too many people are way too sensitive and take things too personally. and no, I'm not trying a "gotcha moment". Just trying to understand my perceived difference in  your opinion from then to now. 

There is nothing contradictory here. People having a thick skin and being able to take it does not make mean things nicer. Also, having a thick skin relates to people discussing the topics when I say that, NEVER when it relates to personal insults and being mean to someone. And when I say things are meaner than they used to be, I mean within the past year or two, getting gradually worse until now - I'm not talking about ancient history.

well, I disagree. of  course it doesn't make mean comments nicer, haha. I think making a statement seemingly "complaining" that people are way too sensitive but then also "complaining" (I used that word as I'm struggling for a better one at the moment) that people are too mean is a contradiction. 

edit: I see your post wasn't finished by the time I quoted it, so just an added comment: I honestly recall your "too sensitive" comment coming on the heels of someone being offended by something you or another poster said to them they interpreted as personal. But it was some time ago, so who knows. 

I wouldn't consider a few years ago ancient history, but alright. 

But I digress......

is it possible that is a direct correlation to who is currently POTUS? Now, I'm not blaming him directly, well, at least not entirely. I think the rules have changed re: actual discourse. Being a mainly liberal forum, is it possible that people are quick to be more caustic because of the political climate at present, whether that be a direct result of how POTUS conducts himself or just the fact that liberals are constantly angered at his and his supporters' antics?

This is really the only forum I go to, so I don't know what the climate is like elsewhere. 

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I personally think the main problem here that didn't used to exist so much is simply people being way more mean and much more willing to throw personal insults and to demean others on a completely personal, one-on-one level, and then people reacting to it. I think dialogue would go just fine no matter how much we all disagreed with each other's views if the meanness and snark and constant pestering and so-called sarcasm (insults in poor disguises) would go away. There is altogether too much actual personal dislike here, being shared way too openly, and it's just rude.

this place was way "meaner" a long time ago. then it went pay to post and it weeded out most of the assholes. the mods went into overdrive. many of the assholes have been banned or just left. some still remain. 

as cincy pointed out, many people leave so little room for discussion that it gets frustrating. 

I do find it interesting, your entire post seems to go in direct contradiction to a previous post where you said that too many people are way too sensitive and take things too personally. and no, I'm not trying a "gotcha moment". Just trying to understand my perceived difference in  your opinion from then to now. 

There is nothing contradictory here. People having a thick skin and being able to take it does not make mean things nicer. Also, having a thick skin relates to people discussing the topics when I say that, NEVER when it relates to personal insults and being mean to someone. And when I say things are meaner than they used to be, I mean within the past year or two, getting gradually worse until now - I'm not talking about ancient history.

well, I disagree. of  course it doesn't make mean comments nicer, haha. I think making a statement seemingly "complaining" that people are way too sensitive but then also "complaining" (I used that word as I'm struggling for a better one at the moment) that people are too mean is a contradiction. 

I wouldn't consider a few years ago ancient history, but alright. 

But I digress......

is it possible that is a direct correlation to who is currently POTUS? Now, I'm not blaming him directly, well, at least not entirely. I think the rules have changed re: actual discourse. Being a mainly liberal forum, is it possible that people are quick to be more caustic because of the political climate at present, whether that be a direct result of how POTUS conducts himself or just the fact that liberals are constantly angered at his and his supporters' antics?

This is really the only forum I go to, so I don't know what the climate is like elsewhere. 

Okay, then you don't understand what I am saying maybe, because it's not a contradiction. Like I said, the difference is between having a thick skin in debate, and dealing with PERSONAL insults. I think there is a very clear divide there, and I have always been clear about that divide.

I do not think it's about Trump. I think it's about the people in this forum.

And I edited my response to you after the fact.

But anyway....having been around here during the Obama presidency, there is a very noticeable shift in how people talk to each other here. And not just here....in other forms of social media. 

I rarely, if ever, had anyone attack me personally during those years, save for one person (who many people also had issues with), until the last while. 

I'm not convinced the timing is merely coincidence. 

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

I personally think the main problem here that didn't used to exist so much is simply people being way more mean and much more willing to throw personal insults and to demean others on a completely personal, one-on-one level, and then people reacting to it. I think dialogue would go just fine no matter how much we all disagreed with each other's views if the meanness and snark and constant pestering and so-called sarcasm (insults in poor disguises) would go away. There is altogether too much actual personal dislike here, being shared way too openly, and it's just rude.

this place was way "meaner" a long time ago. then it went pay to post and it weeded out most of the assholes. the mods went into overdrive. many of the assholes have been banned or just left. some still remain. 

as cincy pointed out, many people leave so little room for discussion that it gets frustrating. 

I do find it interesting, your entire post seems to go in direct contradiction to a previous post where you said that too many people are way too sensitive and take things too personally. and no, I'm not trying a "gotcha moment". Just trying to understand my perceived difference in  your opinion from then to now. 

There is nothing contradictory here. People having a thick skin and being able to take it does not make mean things nicer. Also, having a thick skin relates to people discussing the topics when I say that, NEVER when it relates to personal insults and being mean to someone. And when I say things are meaner than they used to be, I mean within the past year or two, getting gradually worse until now - I'm not talking about ancient history.

well, I disagree. of  course it doesn't make mean comments nicer, haha. I think making a statement seemingly "complaining" that people are way too sensitive but then also "complaining" (I used that word as I'm struggling for a better one at the moment) that people are too mean is a contradiction. 

I wouldn't consider a few years ago ancient history, but alright. 

But I digress......

is it possible that is a direct correlation to who is currently POTUS? Now, I'm not blaming him directly, well, at least not entirely. I think the rules have changed re: actual discourse. Being a mainly liberal forum, is it possible that people are quick to be more caustic because of the political climate at present, whether that be a direct result of how POTUS conducts himself or just the fact that liberals are constantly angered at his and his supporters' antics?

This is really the only forum I go to, so I don't know what the climate is like elsewhere. 

Okay, then you don't understand what I am saying maybe, because it's not a contradiction. Like I said, the difference is between having a thick skin in debate, and dealing with PERSONAL insults. I think there is a very clear divide there, and I have always been clear about that divide.

I do not think it's about Trump. I think it's about the people in this forum.

And I edited my response to you after the fact.

But anyway....having been around here during the Obama presidency, there is a very noticeable shift in how people talk to each other here. And not just here....in other forms of social media. 

I rarely, if ever, had anyone attack me personally during those years, save for one person (who many people also had issues with), until the last while. 

I'm not convinced the timing is merely coincidence. 

I also edited my response.

I think the difference between Obama and Trump years is just that most posters cleared out because the topics and the entire situation is just too stressful and divisive, and they mostly cleared out because of that, leaving only the most stalwart debaters. Unfortunately that also means that a large number of those who kind of helped keep shit balanced and reasonable disappeared. I think the ratio of aggressive posters changed radically, making the entire atmosphere, well, aggressive! So yeah, I guess you're right that it's related to Trump in that he's too awful for a lot of people to even talk about!

I know. I can't keep up with all of your editing. LOL

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion.  There has never been a time.  People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...

Are you blindly sticking with your team of naysayers no matter what on this topic then?

You have also proven my point.  I just made an observation and you continue with a personal jab.  

he didn't prove your point in the slightest. you missed his point. you stated "people have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what". so does that mean you are sticking to your team as well by making this statement?

I do not have a team duh.  Double duh, I have voted for all 4 political parties in Canada.  WTF is the matter with you, its just general statement.  And most people stick with their team...I don't.  Have you paid attention at all?  I think most politicians are corrupt and crooked.

Fuck some of you people can twist shit up into a knot without reason...and sure as hell don't need to comment on everything I say.  I don't agree, then move the fuck on...are you capable?  Or do you just like piling on because that makes you feel good.  I'll go at you all day if you want.  One minute you are full drama, my nerves can't take this place to picking arguments...make up your fucking mind...

Yeah, conversations like this. This is the kind of thing ruining this forum.

it's not the conversation ruining this forum. it's the overreaction and then personal assault. 

That's what I meant.

no...how can you? people don't listen anymore. label and dismiss doesn't make for good chats