there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
You know Brian one of the things I notice and appreciate the most about you is you are almost 100% of the time posing questions to learn...giving input but willing to listen to others. You are very good at it...imo anyhow.
Now - you don't get my humor and that sucks...but I'd say you are in the majority!
Thank you, Cincy.
As for the humor, I have to work on that. Even with my wife- sometimes she will say something meant as a joke and yet I take her totally seriously. This is what a friend once described as a "fatal character flaw". Thankfully, it hasn't killed me yet... so I still have time to work on it!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
Thats just ridiculous
I think it's indicative of not only who he was as a president and is as a person, but also his predecessor and the state of politics today. Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter both spoke here in the past, to a lot less fanfare and way smaller audiences.
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
Are you blindly sticking with your team of naysayers no matter what on this topic then?
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Agreed. We used to have great group conversations that left me reflecting long after they ended. I've learned far too much to try to distill to one post here from people who I disagree with, people who I once disagreed with, and people who I now disagreed with. They come less frequently, but it still gives me hope that we could one day get back there. That said, hope is not a plan.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Agreed. We used to have great group conversations that left me reflecting long after they ended. I've learned far too much to try to distill to one post here from people who I disagree with, people who I once disagreed with, and people who I now disagreed with. They come less frequently, but it still gives me hope that we could one day get back there. That said, hope is not a plan.
I think a lot of people, like myself (although, I do keep returning-I need a busier job, LOL) that just got tired of the bullshit and just stopped coming here.
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Agreed. We used to have great group conversations that left me reflecting long after they ended. I've learned far too much to try to distill to one post here from people who I disagree with, people who I once disagreed with, and people who I now disagreed with. They come less frequently, but it still gives me hope that we could one day get back there. That said, hope is not a plan.
I think a lot of people, like myself (although, I do keep returning-I need a busier job, LOL) that just got tired of the bullshit and just stopped coming here.
Definitely been there. And I find myself having to me more introspective about the damage this place does to me, just based on the toxicity.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Agreed. We used to have great group conversations that left me reflecting long after they ended. I've learned far too much to try to distill to one post here from people who I disagree with, people who I once disagreed with, and people who I now disagreed with. They come less frequently, but it still gives me hope that we could one day get back there. That said, hope is not a plan.
I think a lot of people, like myself (although, I do keep returning-I need a busier job, LOL) that just got tired of the bullshit and just stopped coming here.
Definitely been there. And I find myself having to me more introspective about the damage this place does to me, just based on the toxicity.
this place can be addictive. I find it quite easy to leave behind for a time. but then I convince myself "ah, it's not that bad" and I start lurking again and then eventually posting.
it's not just here, though. When I've unplugged completely (like, zero internet) for a couple weeks and go to the lake, holy shit, it's really insane the effect that has.
I really need to unplug more on a daily basis. it's not good for me at all. and research suggests I'm not in the minority. I sometimes wish I hadn't got a cell phone again after 20 years of not having one. I love/hate having everything at my fingertips at all times.
I personally think the main problem here that didn't used to exist so much is simply people being way more mean and much more willing to throw personal insults and to demean others on a completely personal, one-on-one level, and then people reacting to it. I think dialogue would go just fine no matter how much we all disagreed with each other's views if the meanness and snark and constant pestering and so-called sarcasm (insults in poor disguises) would go away. There is altogether too much actual personal dislike here, being shared way too openly, and it's just rude.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
been around here a long time. years ago people would actually discuss. some people got nasty, but most people would actually discuss and not just shout how right they were all the time.
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
Agreed. We used to have great group conversations that left me reflecting long after they ended. I've learned far too much to try to distill to one post here from people who I disagree with, people who I once disagreed with, and people who I now disagreed with. They come less frequently, but it still gives me hope that we could one day get back there. That said, hope is not a plan.
I think a lot of people, like myself (although, I do keep returning-I need a busier job, LOL) that just got tired of the bullshit and just stopped coming here.
Definitely been there. And I find myself having to me more introspective about the damage this place does to me, just based on the toxicity.
I used to be on a message board for an artist in the early 2000's and there was a lot of political debate on a variety of subjects. There was one fellow member who was the complete opposite of me in lifestyle, beliefs, politics, etc. We would have fascinating debates and neither of us ever changed the other's mind, which really wasn't the goal. We would read long posts from each other and respond and would finally come to a place where we agreed to disagree but with an understanding of why the other person believed what they did and actually coming to the closest common ground that was possible.
And I even attended concerts and events with her. Our political and religious differences did not bleed into our appreciation of other things and we enjoyed our debates because we both put so much thought into answering each other's questions. But those only occurred on the forum in that specific section. We could be silly with each other in other sections and agree on less weighty topics. There was no judgement or desire to silence or take each other down.
I cannot find that type of debate with someone who I am so diametrically opposed these days; never mind having a friendship outside of that. Our common interest in music came first and the debates were fun but secondary. It seems it is opposite nowadays. There is no desire to understand. Everything is mean spirited and sarcasm that is not meant to be funny but rather to sting.
There is no - "would you rather be right or happy" in the development of a topic or debate. I don't see it getting any better for a long time. People do not have friends or date people who are on the opposite spectrum because it has become so intense. Healing needs to occur in the country and I'm not sure how that will happen.
I take breaks. I'm not a person who can say 'it's just a music forum, nothing effects me'. Stuff does get to me and I need to go away for awhile.
I saw the major shift when Obama became president. People just weren't speaking truth anymore and it has metastasized.
I say no, we cannot to your original question. And that makes me very sad. I miss those great debates I used to have with that friend.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
I personally think the main problem here that didn't used to exist so much is simply people being way more mean and much more willing to throw personal insults and to demean others on a completely personal, one-on-one level, and then people reacting to it. I think dialogue would go just fine no matter how much we all disagreed with each other's views if the meanness and snark and constant pestering and so-called sarcasm (insults in poor disguises) would go away. There is altogether too much actual personal dislike here, being shared way too openly, and it's just rude.
I wonder how much of that is due to reduced monitoring of these forums? I've been here since Nov. 2010 (not as long as many others, but a good while) and over the years there seems to be less moderating, fewer time outs, etc. But then, assuming that is the case, I can't imagine trying to keep track of this place for so many years. Gotta give our mods credit for being tenacious!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
Thats just ridiculous
No one is making those people pay that to be in the building they are all there by their choice ..
jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
Thats just ridiculous
No one is making those people pay that to be in the building they are all there by their choice ..
True. The same is true with any big name be it Barack Obama, Pearl Jam, the World Series, etc. We all have to decide to cough up the big bucks or go see/listen to/watch smaller names. And often those smaller name/ affordable shows are the best deal anyway.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
there's simply just too many people waiting for their turn to talk and not listening. too much of wanting to be right instead of learning the truth. and it goes both ways. for instance, when someone brings up that Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet Chicago is a clusterfuck of gun violence, the left often just throw up their hands and yell "cherry picker!" or something of the like. How about "you're right, let's explore why that is"?
there are just as many examples of the "other side" acting the same. this is not a partisan issue.
many just aren't interested in debate where they might end up on the "losing" end. they need to be right so their interests are protected.
Yes, it's definitely not a partisan issue.
As for not wanting to end up on the losing end- that's a great point. Winning the game too often seems to take precedence over establishing the welfare of the people- not to mention the world that sustains us, and that requires making some sacrifices all the way around.
and I just don't see it changing.
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
Thats just ridiculous
No one is making those people pay that to be in the building they are all there by their choice ..
True. The same is true with any big name be it Barack Obama, Pearl Jam, the World Series, etc. We all have to decide to cough up the big bucks or go see/listen to/watch smaller names. And often those smaller name/ affordable shows are the best deal anyway.
Exactly, I’m done giving my $ to stars that are filthy rich I’d rather just walk into a pub and just watch a good artist ..
In my opinion it's ridiculous that politicians can do, and are doing, arena tours... and it's even more ridiculous that people pay to see politicians on said arena tours
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
In my opinion it's ridiculous that politicians can do, and are doing, arena tours... and it's even more ridiculous that people pay to see politicians on said arena tours
I think it's called "bragging rights".
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I wouldn’t pay a dime to see any politician ever but I won’t condemn anyone for spending their $ on what ever they desire , we all have something we get our kicks off on !
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
Are you blindly sticking with your team of naysayers no matter what on this topic then?
Please point to a time you could engage civilly in most political discussion. There has never been a time. People have their team and they stick with their team blindly no matter what...
Are you blindly sticking with your team of naysayers no matter what on this topic then?
You have also proven my point. I just made an observation and you continue with a personal jab.
Until most of the right acknowledges facts, reason and human decency.
No
Now this brings up a good point which is that a different points in history, different factions go off the deep end and public discourse/ reasonable debate becomes much more difficult. Right now, to me anyway, it seems exceedingly difficult.
But I would argue that it's still a worthy goal- maybe even more than ever- at least theoretically and with much patience. I believe this, if for no other reason, because if I ignore the faction that I think has become unreasonable, illogical and/or irresponsible (for me today that would without question be the far right) or if I hurl insults or form no argument better than (as Manning put it) "reading a bumper sticker" over and over, then I'm proving myself to be as unable/ unwilling to engage in public discourse/ reasonable debate as the next guy.
Now, I'm not saying this is easy. I don't know that I do it well, although at times at least I try. And when I do, I at least feel better about how I've responded. And yes, in times like these it's hard to avoid taking the proverbial, "fuck this shit" route. I do that sometimes too. But hopefully, when opportunity arises, I'll try to engage in a civil manner.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
So I think perhaps part of the problem are statements like "most of the right...human decency" and "anyone with half a brain..." thinks like me...
I think statements like that ignore the potential of the opposing or even just differing voice. They look to try and make that differing voice stupid or even keep that differing voice from speaking up.
Comments
as an aside: Obama is speaking in Winnipeg today. Sold out the Bell MTS Place (same place the Winnipeg Jets play) in very short order.
I was not willing to pay $600 for a floor seat nor $180 for one in the rafters. But 13,000 other people were!
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
I wasn't on twitter until relatively recently, so I can't speak to that. but on tv, there is just a different tone. years ago there was no Chris Cuomo and the "counselor to the president" shouting over each other.
www.headstonesband.com
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
www.headstonesband.com
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
it's not just here, though. When I've unplugged completely (like, zero internet) for a couple weeks and go to the lake, holy shit, it's really insane the effect that has.
I really need to unplug more on a daily basis. it's not good for me at all. and research suggests I'm not in the minority. I sometimes wish I hadn't got a cell phone again after 20 years of not having one. I love/hate having everything at my fingertips at all times.
www.headstonesband.com
And I even attended concerts and events with her. Our political and religious differences did not bleed into our appreciation of other things and we enjoyed our debates because we both put so much thought into answering each other's questions. But those only occurred on the forum in that specific section. We could be silly with each other in other sections and agree on less weighty topics. There was no judgement or desire to silence or take each other down.
I cannot find that type of debate with someone who I am so diametrically opposed these days; never mind having a friendship outside of that. Our common interest in music came first and the debates were fun but secondary. It seems it is opposite nowadays. There is no desire to understand. Everything is mean spirited and sarcasm that is not meant to be funny but rather to sting.
There is no - "would you rather be right or happy" in the development of a topic or debate. I don't see it getting any better for a long time. People do not have friends or date people who are on the opposite spectrum because it has become so intense. Healing needs to occur in the country and I'm not sure how that will happen.
I take breaks. I'm not a person who can say 'it's just a music forum, nothing effects me'. Stuff does get to me and I need to go away for awhile.
I saw the major shift when Obama became president. People just weren't speaking truth anymore and it has metastasized.
I say no, we cannot to your original question. And that makes me very sad. I miss those great debates I used to have with that friend.
I think statements like that ignore the potential of the opposing or even just differing voice. They look to try and make that differing voice stupid or even keep that differing voice from speaking up.