Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.

Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.

Piss away.

Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

i never said the system was better. 

You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.

I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?

Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.

I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.

It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.

dignin said:

jeffbr said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

It's starting to bug me t

Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.

Why do they then?

Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.

(source: incidental economist)

Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."

I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

Health System Dashboard

Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 

I wonder if they consider wait times for Americans who don't have access to health care or only wait times for Americans with health care? I would suspect wait times are shorter in America because there are less people in line (per capita). Everyone is in line in Canada.

That's a great question and makes sense to ask. I didn't find the answer either on the chart below or on the Commonwealth fund's site where this data originated.

Bentleyspop said:

Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...

https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1062731138031120384?s=19

What's the OMB score for all this?  Does she know what the OMB is?

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).

Fair enough.  But, if she's paying out of pocket, how is that the insurance industry's fault?  

And there's a lack of regulation on the healthcare industry?  Lol.  Wow.  We have whole departments in the Government that all they do is regulate and dictate (which adds cost to the system).  Too funny.  The Managed Care companies are the ones monitoring quality of doctors because that's how they make money.  They get rid of doctors that have poor outcomes because you know what? An improperly treated diabetic costs a hell of a lot more than a properly treated one.  Profit is a good motivation.  Your understanding of US healthcare companies is so whacked that it's funny. 

So, if a company denies an A1C blood test for a diabetic patient (or a visit where one would be done) the cost to the healthcare system is potentially crazy (and obviously the cost to the patient is their health) with very little cost advantage by avoiding the visit or the test (relatively speaking). Do you know who does a better job of ensuring that diabetic patients get these tests timely? Managed care companies!!! Why? Because losses (to put it in those terms since those are the ones you understand) are exorbitant for an amputation. What does the Canadian gov't do to ensure they get there? do they proactively provide transportation to the Endocrinologist? The US and State Governments don't where they are the direct payers.  Managed Care companies do.  So, even if you think these companies are evil profit takers - they are providing the better care  - why does it matter for what reason? Why is reaping the reward (while lowering overall cost to the system) a bad thing?

Nobody said the US system is perfect.  Not sure where you got that from. All I'm saying is government run is not the solution. 

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.

Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.

Piss away.

Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

i never said the system was better. 

You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.

I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?

Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.

I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.

It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.

Lol, oh please.

Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.

You literally have no sense of humor unless it’s spelled out for you. 

Well everyone who knows me knows that's not true, so maybe it's your sense of humour that's the problem? Or at least how you type it out? Because if you think there was supposed to be a joke in there somewhere, then you're doing something wrong, lol.

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).

Fair enough.  But, if she's paying out of pocket, how is that the insurance industry's fault?  

And there's a lack of regulation on the healthcare industry?  Lol.  Wow.  We have whole departments in the Government that all they do is regulate and dictate (which adds cost to the system).  Too funny.  The Managed Care companies are the ones monitoring quality of doctors because that's how they make money.  They get rid of doctors that have poor outcomes because you know what? An improperly treated diabetic costs a hell of a lot more than a properly treated one.  Profit is a good motivation.  Your understanding of US healthcare companies is so whacked that it's funny. 

So, if a company denies an A1C blood test for a diabetic patient (or a visit where one would be done) the cost to the healthcare system is potentially crazy (and obviously the cost to the patient is their health) with very little cost advantage by avoiding the visit or the test (relatively speaking). Do you know who does a better job of ensuring that diabetic patients get these tests timely? Managed care companies!!! Why? Because losses (to put it in those terms since those are the ones you understand) are exorbitant for an amputation. What does the Canadian gov't do to ensure they get there? do they proactively provide transportation to the Endocrinologist? The US and State Governments don't where they are the direct payers.  Managed Care companies do.  So, even if you think these companies are evil profit takers - they are providing the better care  - why does it matter for what reason? Why is reaping the reward (while lowering overall cost to the system) a bad thing?

Nobody said the US system is perfect.  Not sure where you got that from. All I'm saying is government run is not the solution. 

It's the entire system's fault, which the insurance companies are a part of.

I meant a lack comparative lack of regulation. I wasn't suggesting it's a regulatory free for all. But of course the doctors that attract patients like my sister, and, say, all those plastic surgeon hacks who will do literally anything for a patient if they ask for it, even if it's not safe or if the patient seems mentally unwell. These kinds of doctors really don't exist elsewhere, because the healthcare system doesn't exist in such a monetized industry like that, plus the strictly regulated public systems have regulations that wouldn't make it possible anyhow. In other words, when the system isn't for-profit across the board like that, swindlers and money whores have no place to go. So they all go to America where it's basically a free for all for those types of greedy-ass doctors who are fine with taking advantage of vulnerable patients with money. They feel better when they get in their $300K car and drive home to their mansions.

Anyway, the bottom line is that any healthcare system that is for-profit, where insurance companies have the goal of keeping costs to a minimum, is simply fucking dangerous as fuck, and guarantees that everyone but the rich will ultimately get the short end of the stick. At best.

You missed my entire point. But putting that aside for a second.  If for profit healthcare companies provide the vast majority of coverage for patients and payments to doctors are keeping costs to a minimum then why are they to blame for the high cost of the healthcare system?  And how is the healthcare system so costly?   That logic doesn’t compute.

(and btw, in the US for profit health care companies are proven to have better quality outcomes and lower cost than direct government paid patients. So beyond your logic making no sense, it’s assumptions are wrong,  but, maybe that’s why it makes no sense).

Hi! said:

Bentleyspop said:

Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...

https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1062731138031120384?s=19

Lol, I love her.
Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.

Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.

EdsonNascimento said:

Hi! said:

Bentleyspop said:

Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...

https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1062731138031120384?s=19

Lol, I love her.
Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.

Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.

I dont know alot of things. Why do you assume she wants them out? She isnt the only one that has voiced  concerns. Gilliabrand has echoed similar sentiments for example. If pushed im sure they would ultimatley side with Amazon. I just wonder about the trillion dollar man and the Amazon empire. Bezos sits on the Pentagon advisory board. I just feel like maybe Amazon is maybe a little to powerful and any oversight should be considered or welcomed. Didnt the deal include being able to bypass city council for certain matters?

Hi! said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Hi! said:

Bentleyspop said:

Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...

https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1062731138031120384?s=19

Lol, I love her.
Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.

Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.

I dont know alot of things. Why do you assume she wants them out? She isnt the only one that has voiced  concerns. Gilliabrand has echoed similar sentiments for example. If pushed im sure they would ultimatley side with Amazon. I just wonder about the trillion dollar man and the Amazon empire. Bezos sits on the Pentagon advisory board. I just feel like maybe Amazon is maybe a little to powerful and any oversight should be considered or welcomed. Didnt the deal include being able to bypass city council for certain matters?

Anything she recommends spending on will be scored with a 10 year financial projection by the Office of management and Budget (OMB).   That score must be paid for either with new taxes (which even chuck schumer would not survive if he voted for it in this case) or what’s commonly referred to as Payfors.  Payfors are taking money from other places in the budget to pay for it.  Good luck finding enough of that for the price tag this will get.  There are exceptions to this like disaster relief and such.  So, if she can attach her ideas to one of those like the wildfires in California that will be done soon, she can ram it on through.   Good luck with that on the amount this is going to cost.  Not going to slip that one by the goalie.

anyway, why do you think he insisted on bypassing Nyc council and Cuomo agreed to it?  Because they all know DeBlasio and the council liberals are idiots that would sink the city given the opportunity.   Cuomo has basically been forced to do things to limit their idiocy.  

Amd stop focusing in hes a billionaire so he shouldn’t be dealt with.  The fact is, he doesn’t need any of this.  He can take what he’s made and go home. But this new representative is actually speaking out against them bringing 25,000 high paying jobs not to mention thousands of resulting construction and service industry jobs to an area that just 10 years ago nobody wanted to go.  Do people really think the way to help people is to not do these things?  All because someone who already has more money than he and his next 10 generations could ever use might get a little more?  At the expense of....enriching people and the area he’s bringing his company too?   

So dont bring your company.  nY an NyC don’t need your tax dollars, your employees tax dollars and discretionary spending or your buildings.   We like wallowing in our own pity.