Bu$hleaguer at Arnhem

karma defect · August 2006

SheetsOfClay wrote:

I glad you feel you (and Dylan) can speak for Jesus.

It is poetry, you either get the message or you don't. Anyway that was not the point was it?

karma defect · August 2006

Light_years wrote:

I think a lot of people out there are missing this big time. Eddie is all about thinking for yourself. You can always hear him talking about htis on the bootlegs and concerts and interviews. If you educate yourself on everything that is happening and you still support bush then thats fine.

He is just the leader of a band, just because he feels a certain way doesnt mean you have to as well in order to understad, or appreicated the music.

Well you don't have to agree on everything he says. But I do find it weird that on something major as this you could differ. I am not saying you should have Eddie's views. I just think it is weird that you could (to state it dramatically) listen to a priest when you in fact are a Muslim.

Nakedeye66 · August 2006

karma defect wrote:

I know what you mean man. Indeed fuck those who bood them for playing that song. If you don't like it for it's message then what the f*** are you doing listening to Pearl jam anyway.

I think you can't vote Bush and vote Eddie at the same time.

You're completely wrong. We're not an f-ing poilitical party ... we're rock and roll fans. Frankly, I'm gonna keep following this band as I have for 15 years because they are a great band. But there isn't a political tie-in or freaking lefty litmus test to be a fan. I don't like the song, but it has nothing to do with the message - PJ plays plenty of good songs with a political message. This just isn't one of them. It's trite, pretentious, and the lyrics sound right out of the notebook of an angst ridden college student. Ed can do better ... and has done better hundreds of times. Those of you who want to pump your fists and cheer it, go for it. Those who want to boo ... they can do what they like. Being a PJ fan doesn't mean goosestepping to the anti-American party line. I'm pretty damn sure Ed doesn't exclude those fans who disagree with him politically - pretty evident by his frequent references to his dear friend Johnny Ramone who is pretty damn conservative and would no doubt have drawn the ire of the poster here.

Get over yourself. If you love the song, all the power to you. And I say the same to those who want to boo it. That's what America is about. That's what rock and roll is about - free spirited independence. And if you really think someone is less a fan in Ed's eyes or anyone else's because they don't take their political cues from rock bands, then you are an aneathma to the very freedom and tolerance you likely claim to defend.

FnCircus · August 2006

Nakedeye66 wrote:

If you love the song, all the power to you. And I say the same to those who want to boo it. That's what America is about.

It is. That's what makes us great, us as individuals who think and feel differently. I don't agree with most of the decisions our government is making, but I as an individual have the power to change that. Just like the people who agree with the decisions have the power to continue that trend. It's called the right to vote, the youth vote, the non-corporate vote, and that's something that Ed has been advocating for a long time! No matter what political party, religious faction, beliefs and values you might have.

Bu$hleaguer is a song that Ed feels strongly about, after all, he wrote it. You have the FREEDOM to view it the same way or not. It's up to you, but i won't tell anyone they wrong for saying it.

And lastly, and this is my opinion, that there's discussion going on here that doesn't belong in the Given to Fly forum, more for the Moving Train forum. I think if there is any more discussion, it should be done there.

Thanks for listening.

daanarts · August 2006

sliverstain wrote:

Bu$hleaguer was played in Arnhem. Fucking A. About time!

The not (barely) playing of this song since those cocks booed it in the states is, for me, the only gripe ive ever had with the band. They should have been playing it every godamned night since those so called "fans", a small minority i know, booed and jeered it back in 03. Fuck them, and fuck anybody who doesn't like the songs message.

Also lays to ground my plan of making a Bu$hleaguer sign for the Italia shows!

hated it. i thought it was hypocritical to play it in the liberal holland, easy trick, and not play it in the USA anymore..

Riot_Rain · August 2006

On a lighter note:

One of the Dutch reviewers (from De Gelderlander newspaper) thought it wasn't very obvious that the mask represented Bush. WHAT AN IDIOT! Ah well, proved he didn't know any Pearl Jam songs, as the fact that the song is called Bu$hleager is a definite hint

Review was crap anyway. According to that same journalist PJ haven't done anything decent since Ten and the band was only saved by Eddie's voice in Arnhem *sigh*

Puck78 · August 2006

Abneriel wrote:

OMG OMG OMG!!! PJ has done a few "liberal, anti war" songs so all conservatives should stop listening!

certainly no one could be at the concerts to listen to the million other songs they sing that aren't political...or at least some that are and can be interpreted in different ways.

I'm sure Eddie still listens to The Ramones regardless of John Cummings' personal political views.

I'm not trying to talk politics, but seriously people, this whole "conservatives cannot listen to PJ" crapwagon is ridiculous.

"God bless President Bush, and God bless America" - Johnny Ramone

shove that one in your tailpipe!

conservatives can listen, no doubt, but not booo the song... if you go to the theatre and you see something liberal, do you booo? Keep on voting in what you prefer, but not boo the band, even if you booo you won't stop them keeping their ideas

Puck78 · August 2006

daanarts wrote:

hated it. i thought it was hypocritical to play it in the liberal holland, easy trick, and not play it in the USA anymore..

enjoy the songs and less mental masturbation...

daanarts · August 2006

Puck78 wrote:

enjoy the songs and less mental masturbation...

come again? i hope u mean Ed-himself. if he vents his opinion fine. i dont have to like it...read this its easy-- Love pearl jam music-- dont like his opinion in my face...

BrainOfJD · August 2006

The band must feel so relieved that they're in Europe and far away from the "fans" who boo them for speaking out against the criminal that cheated and swindled his way into office twice and has spent the last 6 years systematically ruining this country and its standing in the world with his incompetence, greed, and arrogance.

I'm so sick of the booing of this song, especially with the things that have happened in the 3 years since they debuted it, ie, Iraq getting even worse, HURRICANE KATRINA, gas prices driving the economy into the toilet... but why should people pay attention to stuff like that? Keep booing Eddie Vedder, he's obviously the problem.

(EDITED to take out impolite language

)

hoeyd2 · August 2006

I'm not going to get in to this properly because arguing on the internet against some little keyboard warriors is absolutely pointless.

But some of you people make me sick. And I'm talking directly to those who say you can't vote Bush and vote Eddie.

Any time you put down a marker to say somebody should be kept from enjoying this band (or any band), you've crossed a line and have illustrated a complete misunderstanding of what music is actually about.

PEARL JAM IS NOT A POLITICAL PARTY

Eliot Rosewater · August 2006

andych wrote:

was it that tour that a large section of the crowd walked out during that song?

That's not even what happened. I believe it's the 4/1/03 Denver show you're referring to. I was there and saw a few people leave, but maybe it was their piss break song. There may have been a few that left because they were offended but I assure you I would have noticed if a "large section" left. The true story is that some ultra-conservative Denver newspaper was offended and ran a terribly inaccurate story about it, then it got picked up by some of the national media.

karma defect · August 2006

Nakedeye66 wrote:

You're completely wrong. We're not an f-ing poilitical party ... we're rock and roll fans. Frankly, I'm gonna keep following this band as I have for 15 years because they are a great band. But there isn't a political tie-in or freaking lefty litmus test to be a fan. I don't like the song, but it has nothing to do with the message - PJ plays plenty of good songs with a political message. This just isn't one of them. It's trite, pretentious, and the lyrics sound right out of the notebook of an angst ridden college student. Ed can do better ... and has done better hundreds of times. Those of you who want to pump your fists and cheer it, go for it. Those who want to boo ... they can do what they like. Being a PJ fan doesn't mean goosestepping to the anti-American party line. I'm pretty damn sure Ed doesn't exclude those fans who disagree with him politically - pretty evident by his frequent references to his dear friend Johnny Ramone who is pretty damn conservative and would no doubt have drawn the ire of the poster here.

Get over yourself. If you love the song, all the power to you. And I say the same to those who want to boo it. That's what America is about. That's what rock and roll is about - free spirited independence. And if you really think someone is less a fan in Ed's eyes or anyone else's because they don't take their political cues from rock bands, then you are an aneathma to the very freedom and tolerance you likely claim to defend.

The point is not that you can't be a fan. Why would you want to. The point was how the hell can you support something that is against the things that you believe in. And on the booing well I think that is shit if you do that. You bought the ticket and they play the songs, and they do that quite well. So you can't complain, oh well you could complain, but just not like that.

I don't deny anyone the right to listen. And what if I did? It wouldn't change a thing for you. I guess it's just how seriously you take the words to the songs and your own convictions.

karma defect · August 2006

daanarts wrote:

come again? i hope u mean Ed-himself. if he vents his opinion fine. i dont have to like it...read this its easy-- Love pearl jam music-- dont like his opinion in my face...

I get what you mean, but it wasn't like that for me, if he had wanted to do it for the effect he would have done it early during the set.

Yes I think they should get right in everyone's face and play it in America as well, maybe he just don't wish to put a bad vibe at the gigs in America. Effecting the ones who take offence and the people who don't but get effected by the booing.

Nakedeye66 · August 2006

karma defect wrote:

The point is not that you can't be a fan. Why would you want to. The point was how the hell can you support something that is against the things that you believe in. And on the booing well I think that is shit if you do that. You bought the ticket and they play the songs, and they do that quite well. So you can't complain, oh well you could complain, but just not like that.

Easily. I am a huge music fan and love Pearl Jam's music. In fact, I love it so much that I can cut right through the political disagreement. Everyone can complain. Guys in the band (and others) have a right to voice their opinion, and paying customers have the right to like it or dislike it, cheer or boo. When Pearl Jam starts making bad songs and putting on bad shows, then I'll "boycott". If they are a great band, why should I deprive myself of the joy I get from the tunes over politics?

I don't think politics and entertainment necessarily go hand in hand. I don't look to celebrities for my political education, and I don't look at those who disagree with me as enemies ... but rather as brothers and sisters who disagree with me. Whether it's entertainment, friendship, or professional relations, I have no requirement that others think like I do or believe what I do. I am perfectly comfortable arguing politics with others and then having a beer together. I wish more people would. Actually, PJ fans DO!!!

Abneriel · August 2006

karma defect wrote:

The point is not that you can't be a fan. Why would you want to. The point was how the hell can you support something that is against the things that you believe in. And on the booing well I think that is shit if you do that. You bought the ticket and they play the songs, and they do that quite well. So you can't complain, oh well you could complain, but just not like that.

I don't deny anyone the right to listen. And what if I did? It wouldn't change a thing for you. I guess it's just how seriously you take the words to the songs and your own convictions.

Just because you are a fan of the music doesn't mean you're a fan of the politics. I don't need to be a liberal to enjoy "Off He Goes" "Given To Fly" or "Black". Even many of their political songs can be appreciated by both sides of the aisle. Even Flow, although politically charged about the homeless, isn't exactly partisan...as both conservatives and liberals have a concern for the problem. Even more focused songs such as "Green Disease" can be interpreted generally. There are very few songs that PJ performs that are so forward in their message that they are beyond personal interpretation. People are just that, people, and they'll have different opinions. I don't dislike someone for thinking different than I do as long as their actions don't have a negative effect on my life. I have many liberal and conservative friends and LOVE getting into debates with them and having a good time later. That's one of the things that makes this country great.

I do agree however, that although it's people's right to boo if they wish, it's rude and I don't take part in it. I simply don't overexert myself with the cheering.

Nakedeye66 · August 2006

F'n_Circus wrote:

And lastly, and this is my opinion, that there's discussion going on here that doesn't belong in the Given to Fly forum, more for the Moving Train forum. I think if there is any more discussion, it should be done there. Thanks for listening.

Good point. When I started reading this thread, I thought the same thing ... "doesn't this belong on the Moving Train?" But it's a tough call since this thread is about a song ... and the live performance of that song.

Anyhow, I'm glad it's here instead. The posting fans on the music side tend be less vicious and, dare I say, far less tolerant.

So many of the anti-Bush folks claim to be so "tolerant", but what's so tolerant about spewing venom at those who disagree with you? Or having a mindset that can't fathom how someone can love Pearl Jam and not hate President Bush. If that's the case, ask yourself what it means to be tolerant and believe in equality.

Us "conservatives" aren't all caricatured bigots who shout down others and forcefeed our views. I may disagree with the overwhelming majority of PJ fans on most issues, but absolutely respect the right of all people to their independent viewpoints ... and my gut tells me this band appreciates their fans just the same irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity, or ideology. "Diversity" should go beyond what meets the eye. Diversity is every bit as much about what we think/feel as it is about the color of our skin, the place we come from, or the God we do (or don't) pray to.

And my apologies if I'm veering into Moving Train turf but, as I said, the folks here seem to be less tightly wound.

karma defect · August 2006

Nakedeye66 wrote:

Easily. I am a huge music fan and love Pearl Jam's music. In fact, I love it so much that I can cut right through the political disagreement. Everyone can complain. Guys in the band (and others) have a right to voice their opinion, and paying customers have the right to like it or dislike it, cheer or boo. When Pearl Jam starts making bad songs and putting on bad shows, then I'll "boycott". If they are a great band, why should I deprive myself of the joy I get from the tunes over politics?

I don't think politics and entertainment necessarily go hand in hand. I don't look to celebrities for my political education, and I don't look at those who disagree with me as enemies ... but rather as brothers and sisters who disagree with me. Whether it's entertainment, friendship, or professional relations, I have no requirement that others think like I do or believe what I do. I am perfectly comfortable arguing politics with others and then having a beer together. I wish more people would. Actually, PJ fans DO!!!

I guess you just don't listen to music or at least Pearl jam the way I do(no value judgement in it though). I don't hear music, I hear songs. If you know what I mean. I can't hear them without the words and the words have meaning.
I don't see it as entertainment either. I think you are wrong in your views, but in the end that doesn't matter since everyone is entitled to their opinion. And so we have a very different view on the booing issue. You can't boo an artist, well maybe if they don't do their best. Still I don't believe that can be said about Pearl jam. If for nothing else don't boo because it will ruin the vibe and the rest of the gig and since you are there that ain't too smart.

Nakedeye66 · August 2006

Abneriel wrote:

I do agree however, that although it's people's right to boo if they wish, it's rude and I don't take part in it. I simply don't overexert myself with the cheering.

I'm with you. I quietly seize the opportunity to sit and rest my feet. And since I'm 6'3", I'm pretty darn sure the fans behind me don't mind either!

Yeah, booing is obnoxious and I sure don't ever like to hear PJ booed. But I guess paying customers have the right to offend so long as they don't endanger others.

Nakedeye66 · August 2006

karma defect wrote:

I guess you just don't listen to music or at least Pearl jam the way I do(no value judgement in it though). I don't hear music, I hear songs. If you know what I mean. I can't hear them without the words and the words have meaning. I don't see it as entertainment either. I think you are wrong in your views, but in the end that doesn't matter since everyone is entitled to their opinion. And so we have a very different view on the booing issue. You can't boo an artist, well maybe if they don't do their best. Still I don't believe that can be said about Pearl jam. If for nothing else don't boo because it will ruin the vibe and the rest of the gig and since you are there that ain't too smart.

Actually, TONS of PJ songs strike a chord in my gut and are more than "just songs" ... Bushleaguer, Grievance, and Stupid Mop just don't happen to be among them. I don't know how you listen to the music, but go with whatever works for you. Yeah, Present Tense, Red Mosquito, Black, Immortality, Indifference ... they send a chill down my spine every time. In fact, so does an anti-war song like Army Reserve! At the end of the day, my issue with Bushleaguer isn't that it attacks a politician - it ain't the first and surely not the last to do so. I just think its sort of a silly song.

Bu$hleaguer at Arnhem

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