Bu$hleaguer at Arnhem

karma defect

Abneriel wrote:

Just because you are a fan of the music doesn't mean you're a fan of the politics. I don't need to be a liberal to enjoy "Off He Goes" "Given To Fly" or "Black". Even many of their political songs can be appreciated by both sides of the aisle. Even Flow, although politically charged about the homeless, isn't exactly partisan...as both conservatives and liberals have a concern for the problem. Even more focused songs such as "Green Disease" can be interpreted generally. There are very few songs that PJ performs that are so forward in their message that they are beyond personal interpretation. People are just that, people, and they'll have different opinions. I don't dislike someone for thinking different than I do as long as their actions don't have a negative effect on my life. I have many liberal and conservative friends and LOVE getting into debates with them and having a good time later. That's one of the things that makes this country great.

I do agree however, that although it's people's right to boo if they wish, it's rude and I don't take part in it. I simply don't overexert myself with the cheering.

Well I just could never do that. If a band is about something that I disagree on than it is goodbye. About Even flow. Yes you assuming you vote right probable have a different solution coming from that back ground than I would coming from mine. That isn't covered in the song. What is is that the existence of the problem is a bad thing and one would be an ass to disagree on that. Sure you don't need to be left. You might also be left and pro war.
And that is what I don't understand. If you feel so strong on either Bush or the war how can you combine the two. See to me love for life and going to war don't combine, and Pearl jam is all about love for life to me.
So if you feel that strong that you have the need to boo this band, how can you have any respect for it hence listen to it.
To me that love for life is something that lies at the heart of Pearl jam and can be found in any song. And I don't see how you can divide the two.

karma defect

Nakedeye66 wrote:

Actually, TONS of PJ songs strike a chord in my gut and are more than "just songs" ... Bushleaguer, Grievance, and Stupid Mop just don't happen to be among them. I don't know how you listen to the music, but go with whatever works for you. Yeah, Present Tense, Red Mosquito, Black, Immortality, Indifference ... they send a chill down my spine every time. In fact, so does an anti-war song like Army Reserve! At the end of the day, my issue with Bushleaguer isn't that it attacks a politician - it ain't the first and surely not the last to do so. I just think its sort of a silly song.

Well that can be, I certainly don't like every song myself.
I like it because of it's weird structure. In fact I wish they made more weird music. I don't listen to Pearl jams music as I would listen to the music of lets say Pink Floyd. That is more about the effect of an lick then it is with Pearl jam. Pearl jam make songs that go with the lyrics, the text is a big part of it. The two make a whole.
I meant to say maybe you are the type of listener that hears the lyrics in the second place. But that is just figuring from the way I experience Pearl jam or other bands that make little stories to music. I hear the words first, and if a band is about something that goes against my believes I could not listen to them.

Nakedeye66

karma defect wrote:

Well that can be, I certainly don't like every song myself.
I like it because of it's weird structure. In fact I wish they made more weird music. I don't listen to Pearl jams music as I would listen to the music of lets say Pink Floyd. That is more about the effect of an lick then it is with Pearl jam. Pearl jam make songs that go with the lyrics, the text is a big part of it. The two make a whole.
I meant to say maybe you are the type of listener that hears the lyrics in the second place. But that is just figuring from the way I experience Pearl jam. I hear the words first, and if a band is about something that goes against my believes I could not listen to them.

Ok, I have to fess up that I sort of do like Bushleaguer musically. I know politically lots of fans like the lyrical content but I think it's cooler as an instrumental. I like stranger songs too, and always been a HUGE Floyd fan. (I don't even want to get into how many times I tripped to watch Pompeii or The Wall in my younger days). Don't you wish they'd play the WHOLE Interstellar Overdrive??!!

Ok, I'll give you an example. In '96 when I bought No Code and first heard the "Sometimes" opener I was going nuts at how great I thought it was. I thought, "this is different than anything I've yet heard Pearl Jam play"! I love the Can't Keep opener too, and would love to see it return sometime this tour. Thos offbeat PJ songs are among the best - Sleight Of Hand is as underrated as they get. I was at Alpine Valley in '03 and sat on my ass during Bushleaguer. At the end, I turned to my buddy and admitted grudgingly "that version did sound pretty damn good". But I never sat in '00 ... had to keep moving, too damn COLD!!!

Nakedeye66

karma defect wrote:

Pearl jam make songs that go with the lyrics, the text is a big part of it. The two make a whole.

Actually, my love for PJ is incredibly tied in to the lyrics - I just think their lyrical talent is in telling individual tales and tapping into the emotions of the listeners. In my opinion, pure political protest is not Pearl Jam's top lyrical strength. For pure political or anti-establishment commentary or protest, try the Drive-By Truckers. If you want to go back 20 years and hear the best anti-conservative rock, try the Minutemen ... or for a scathing attack on a political conservative, listen to Elvis Costello's "Tramp The Dirt Down" and he'll let you know how he felt about Maggie.

Pearl Jam is immensely gifted lyrically, but if I wanted to show that gift off to a new listener ... I wouldnt reach for the politics first. I think they do better elsewhere and their overtly political lyrics are not their "A" material. Of course this is just one fans' opinion with no claim to be right or wrong.

karma defect

Nakedeye66 wrote:

Ok, I have to fess up that I sort of do like Bushleaguer musically. I know politically lots of fans like the lyrical content but I think it's cooler as an instrumental. I like stranger songs too, and always been a HUGE Floyd fan. (I don't even want to get into how many times I tripped to watch Pompeii or The Wall in my younger days). Don't you wish they'd play the WHOLE Interstellar Overdrive??!!

Ok, I'll give you an example. In '96 when I bought No Code and first heard the "Sometimes" opener I was going nuts at how great I thought it was. I thought, "this is different than anything I've yet heard Pearl Jam play"! I love the Can't Keep opener too, and would love to see it return sometime this tour. Thos offbeat PJ songs are among the best - Sleight Of Hand is as underrated as they get. I was at Alpine Valley in '03 and sat on my ass during Bushleaguer. At the end, I turned to my buddy and admitted grudgingly "that version did sound pretty damn good". But I never sat in '00 ... had to keep moving, too damn COLD!!!

No code is my absolute favourite album.

You ask: Don't you wish they'd play the WHOLE Interstellar Overdrive??!!
I would have saddled for the intro part.:D They didn't play it in Arnhem they did the Ten intro. Not that I am complaining. I two have the wish that they would make a more atmospheric and off beat album than the normal straight on rock. That would be bloody brilliant with Eddies voice.
Sometimes is just so sweet as an opener. It is more like painting with chords than it is playing a song.

Nakedeye66

hoeyd2 wrote:

I'm not going to get in to this properly because arguing on the internet against some little keyboard warriors is absolutely pointless.

But some of you people make me sick. And I'm talking directly to those who say you can't vote Bush and vote Eddie.

Any time you put down a marker to say somebody should be kept from enjoying this band (or any band), you've crossed a line and have illustrated a complete misunderstanding of what music is actually about.

PEARL JAM IS NOT A POLITICAL PARTY

Couldn't agree more with your premise that PJ isn't a political party. But the debate here is pretty level-headed and cool. People definitely get a little emboldened at keyboards and I'm not a huge fan of that medium for debate/discussion. Having said that, I find that when you lower the room temperature a bit, most of the initially venomous folks lighten up. Not all, but most.

Crazy as it sounds to most of you, I'd still vote Bush against what the Dems are putting out there ... and I'll still see PJ and listen to Ed rant to the contrary EVERY CHANCE I GET. God Bless America that different ends of the spectrum always have, and will somehow coexist.

Nakedeye66

karma defect wrote:

No code is my absolute favourite album. You ask: Don't you wish they'd play the WHOLE Interstellar Overdrive??!! I would have saddled for the intro part.:D They didn't play it in Arnhem they did the Ten intro. Not that I am complaining. I two have the wish that they would make a more atmospheric and off beat album than the normal straight on rock. That would be bloody brilliant with Eddies voice. Sometimes is just so sweet as an opener. It is more like painting with chords than it is playing a song.

You underscore my point. We disagree politically ... yet when the subject is the MUSIC, we had no problem bridging that gap and getting on the same wavelength. We could probably do that on 90% of the songs. Should politics make all that meaningless??

Thats the point.

And when the f*&% are the Euro boots gonna become available??

See, everything grinds to a halt due to your socialist/internationalist/bureaucratic tendencies!!!!!

casper9964

remember that song was written for all those who go to the show to hear black and jeremy. It makes me laugh soooo hard when i see people get so upset over pearl jams political messages, they just listen to the songs and not the words!!! to those people U SUCK!!!!
P.S. George Bush sucks tooo whooo hoooo

karma defect

Nakedeye66 wrote:

Actually, my love for PJ is incredibly tied in to the lyrics - I just think their lyrical talent is in telling individual tales and tapping into the emotions of the listeners. In my opinion, pure political protest is not Pearl Jam's top lyrical strength. For pure political or anti-establishment commentary or protest, try the Drive-By Truckers. If you want to go back 20 years and hear the best anti-conservative rock, try the Minutemen ... or for a scathing attack on a political conservative, listen to Elvis Costello's "Tramp The Dirt Down" and he'll let you know how he felt about Maggie.

Pearl Jam is immensely gifted lyrically, but if I wanted to show that gift off to a new listener ... I wouldnt reach for the politics first. I think they do better elsewhere and their overtly political lyrics are not their "A" material. Of course this is just one fans' opinion with no claim to be right or wrong.

I don't know, guess it is what you see as political. And in the words of Skunk anasie Everything is political:D No seriously I think State of love and trust or I got ID/shit are political to me, or lets say they are about society. And I do like them very much. They put the finger on the spot for me. It isn't political like Dylans master of war, but it does raise a social issue for me. I would love to live in a state of love and trust and I hate walking in line and doing what is expected of me, but sometimes I do have to. And even than I am pretty bad at it.:p

karma defect

Nakedeye66 wrote:

You underscore my point. We disagree politically ... yet when the subject is the MUSIC, we had no problem bridging that gap and getting on the same wavelength. We could probably do that on 90% of the songs. Should politics make all that meaningless??

Thats the point.

I get your point. I don't know your views, but I could easily not like someone that digs Pearl jam because of their views because that is more important to me. Well on some issues to be exact. I don't agree with my friends on every occasion and they don't agree with me either. Still there is a global comparison, and there are just some issues that over ride every thing. Lets say I meet a racist, I just could never respect a person like that. And the same goes for a band.

I didn't mean to undermine your point, I just thought their wasn't any. :D hihi that didn't came out right. I wasn't aware you were trying to make one. I just thought you were telling me a story.

And when the f*&% are the Euro boots gonna become available??

Nakedeye66 wrote:

See, everything grinds to a halt due to your socialist/internationalist/bureaucratic tendencies!!!!!

Well you could bomb who ever is responsible.;) There is another cliché for ya.:D:p

Open

SheetsOfClay wrote:

I glad you feel you (and Dylan) can speak for Jesus.

Who made who?

comebackwoman

I love this song. I like the lyrics, the music, the political message - but my favorite is the mask and Ed's little Bush dance. I've yet to see it live, but one day I will - and I will cheer my ass off!