WWII

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I have a complicated relationship with WW2.
On the one hand, I can't deny that it is an immensely interesting topic to learn about, on the other hand, I've always been bothered by it's role in glorifying war and sanitising the complicated nature of global war.
It always gets boiled down to "us good, them bad, kick ass" and the reality is alot dirtier than that.
It's heavily used to drum up jingoism and all perspective goes out the window.
Pearl Harbor is a great example.
It was a small attack on a military base that resulted in fewer than 3,000 lives lost (only a few dozen civilians) and people revere it like it was one of the most atrocious abominations ever to occur.
The ramifications of that attack are undeniably massive, but it isn't so much celebrated and remembered as a momentous event of consequence, it's more remembered as this monolithic tragedy that is without parallel.
Of course it was a tragedy, but put in perspective with our incursions in that war and beyond, it's a blip, a minor sortie with minimal casualty.
It's this grandiosity in remembrance that grates on my sense of propriety.
Another small example, you'd think from the lore surrounding Rosie the Riveter that women had never been a part of the workforce before the start of the war, but of course women had been getting down and dirty since the earliest beginnings of the industrial revolution.  
The US had an active propaganda machine to rival any in the Axis, and since we won resoundingly, the influence of that propaganda never abated.  Christians that wouldn't swear on anything suddenly pledging allegiance to a flag, anti-communist fervour, etc etc.

I just wish it was easier to talk about WW2 honestly, confronting it in all it's complex ugliness without such childish pride in being the home team victors.

I couldn't agree more. War is war and there is nothing glorious about the brutal death of thousand of people.   Of all the wars, WWII was perhaps the most justifiable the U.S. has been involved in but we were also not faultless in that war.  

My father loved to tell his stories about WWII and I liked hearing them because they were about his past but, though I never told him this, I much more preferred hearing about how, as a young child,  he helped his mother planted vegetables during the great depression or how he and his kid friends scrounged for bits of tin, iron and other  metals to sell for a few pennies and then would sneak back into the scrap yard at night, toss some of the metal back over the fence and take it back to sell again for a few cents.    He had no father to provide for the family so though there was certainly no pride in the theft, it was either that or starve.

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I have a complicated relationship with WW2.
On the one hand, I can't deny that it is an immensely interesting topic to learn about, on the other hand, I've always been bothered by it's role in glorifying war and sanitising the complicated nature of global war.
It always gets boiled down to "us good, them bad, kick ass" and the reality is alot dirtier than that.
It's heavily used to drum up jingoism and all perspective goes out the window.
Pearl Harbor is a great example.
It was a small attack on a military base that resulted in fewer than 3,000 lives lost (only a few dozen civilians) and people revere it like it was one of the most atrocious abominations ever to occur.
The ramifications of that attack are undeniably massive, but it isn't so much celebrated and remembered as a momentous event of consequence, it's more remembered as this monolithic tragedy that is without parallel.
Of course it was a tragedy, but put in perspective with our incursions in that war and beyond, it's a blip, a minor sortie with minimal casualty.
It's this grandiosity in remembrance that grates on my sense of propriety.
Another small example, you'd think from the lore surrounding Rosie the Riveter that women had never been a part of the workforce before the start of the war, but of course women had been getting down and dirty since the earliest beginnings of the industrial revolution.  
The US had an active propaganda machine to rival any in the Axis, and since we won resoundingly, the influence of that propaganda never abated.  Christians that wouldn't swear on anything suddenly pledging allegiance to a flag, anti-communist fervour, etc etc.

I just wish it was easier to talk about WW2 honestly, confronting it in all it's complex ugliness without such childish pride in being the home team victors.

I couldn't agree more. War is war and there is nothing glorious about the brutal death of thousand of people.   Of all the wars, WWII was perhaps the most justifiable the U.S. has been involved in but we were also not faultless in that war.  

My father loved to tell his stories about WWII and I liked hearing them because they were about his past but, though I never told him this, I much more preferred hearing about how, as a young child,  he helped his mother planted vegetables during the great depression or how he and his kid friends scrounged for bits of tin, iron and other  metals to sell for a few pennies and then would sneak back into the scrap yard at night, toss some of the metal back over the fence and take it back to sell again for a few cents.    He had no father to provide for the family so though there was certainly no pride in the theft, it was either that or starve.

I'm not torn about WWII, although there's no denying the horrors of war, regardless of the reason.  Now you say "faultless", for me that depends on what you mean.  I don't think we are at fault for the start of the war.  Yes, our position was made clear by FDR on which side we were on.  Lend-lease in the west and freezing the Japanese assets in the east probably led to the Pearl Harbor attack, but the origin of the war (not going back to Versailles) lies squarely with the Germans and Japanese.
Now if you say we did not conduct ourselves with high morals at all times, I would absolutely concur with that.  Gen Curtis LeMay's fire bombing campaign, as an example, is a systematic war crime.  But there's no denying that the Nazi party and the Japanese military were pure evil.  

very good analyzation of world war 2 and I agree 100%.  To me the firebombing was necessary because the japanese were not surrendering.    however if japan wasn't ignored during versailles who knows what would have happened; hind sight is 20/20.

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I have a complicated relationship with WW2.
On the one hand, I can't deny that it is an immensely interesting topic to learn about, on the other hand, I've always been bothered by it's role in glorifying war and sanitising the complicated nature of global war.
It always gets boiled down to "us good, them bad, kick ass" and the reality is alot dirtier than that.
It's heavily used to drum up jingoism and all perspective goes out the window.
Pearl Harbor is a great example.
It was a small attack on a military base that resulted in fewer than 3,000 lives lost (only a few dozen civilians) and people revere it like it was one of the most atrocious abominations ever to occur.
The ramifications of that attack are undeniably massive, but it isn't so much celebrated and remembered as a momentous event of consequence, it's more remembered as this monolithic tragedy that is without parallel.
Of course it was a tragedy, but put in perspective with our incursions in that war and beyond, it's a blip, a minor sortie with minimal casualty.
It's this grandiosity in remembrance that grates on my sense of propriety.
Another small example, you'd think from the lore surrounding Rosie the Riveter that women had never been a part of the workforce before the start of the war, but of course women had been getting down and dirty since the earliest beginnings of the industrial revolution.  
The US had an active propaganda machine to rival any in the Axis, and since we won resoundingly, the influence of that propaganda never abated.  Christians that wouldn't swear on anything suddenly pledging allegiance to a flag, anti-communist fervour, etc etc.

I just wish it was easier to talk about WW2 honestly, confronting it in all it's complex ugliness without such childish pride in being the home team victors.

I couldn't agree more. War is war and there is nothing glorious about the brutal death of thousand of people.   Of all the wars, WWII was perhaps the most justifiable the U.S. has been involved in but we were also not faultless in that war.  

My father loved to tell his stories about WWII and I liked hearing them because they were about his past but, though I never told him this, I much more preferred hearing about how, as a young child,  he helped his mother planted vegetables during the great depression or how he and his kid friends scrounged for bits of tin, iron and other  metals to sell for a few pennies and then would sneak back into the scrap yard at night, toss some of the metal back over the fence and take it back to sell again for a few cents.    He had no father to provide for the family so though there was certainly no pride in the theft, it was either that or starve.

I'm not torn about WWII, although there's no denying the horrors of war, regardless of the reason.  Now you say "faultless", for me that depends on what you mean.  I don't think we are at fault for the start of the war.  Yes, our position was made clear by FDR on which side we were on.  Lend-lease in the west and freezing the Japanese assets in the east probably led to the Pearl Harbor attack, but the origin of the war (not going back to Versailles) lies squarely with the Germans and Japanese.
Now if you say we did not conduct ourselves with high morals at all times, I would absolutely concur with that.  Gen Curtis LeMay's fire bombing campaign, as an example, is a systematic war crime.  But there's no denying that the Nazi party and the Japanese military were pure evil.  

I'm not in any way defending the German and Japanese military at the time, that's for sure.

LeMay's fire bombing campaigns: fail.

And Hiroshima, Nagasaki?  I've heard all the arguments favoring the decision to nuke those cities.  I still say: fail.

brianlux said:

mcgruff10 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I have a complicated relationship with WW2.
On the one hand, I can't deny that it is an immensely interesting topic to learn about, on the other hand, I've always been bothered by it's role in glorifying war and sanitising the complicated nature of global war.
It always gets boiled down to "us good, them bad, kick ass" and the reality is alot dirtier than that.
It's heavily used to drum up jingoism and all perspective goes out the window.
Pearl Harbor is a great example.
It was a small attack on a military base that resulted in fewer than 3,000 lives lost (only a few dozen civilians) and people revere it like it was one of the most atrocious abominations ever to occur.
The ramifications of that attack are undeniably massive, but it isn't so much celebrated and remembered as a momentous event of consequence, it's more remembered as this monolithic tragedy that is without parallel.
Of course it was a tragedy, but put in perspective with our incursions in that war and beyond, it's a blip, a minor sortie with minimal casualty.
It's this grandiosity in remembrance that grates on my sense of propriety.
Another small example, you'd think from the lore surrounding Rosie the Riveter that women had never been a part of the workforce before the start of the war, but of course women had been getting down and dirty since the earliest beginnings of the industrial revolution.  
The US had an active propaganda machine to rival any in the Axis, and since we won resoundingly, the influence of that propaganda never abated.  Christians that wouldn't swear on anything suddenly pledging allegiance to a flag, anti-communist fervour, etc etc.

I just wish it was easier to talk about WW2 honestly, confronting it in all it's complex ugliness without such childish pride in being the home team victors.

I couldn't agree more. War is war and there is nothing glorious about the brutal death of thousand of people.   Of all the wars, WWII was perhaps the most justifiable the U.S. has been involved in but we were also not faultless in that war.  

My father loved to tell his stories about WWII and I liked hearing them because they were about his past but, though I never told him this, I much more preferred hearing about how, as a young child,  he helped his mother planted vegetables during the great depression or how he and his kid friends scrounged for bits of tin, iron and other  metals to sell for a few pennies and then would sneak back into the scrap yard at night, toss some of the metal back over the fence and take it back to sell again for a few cents.    He had no father to provide for the family so though there was certainly no pride in the theft, it was either that or starve.

I'm not torn about WWII, although there's no denying the horrors of war, regardless of the reason.  Now you say "faultless", for me that depends on what you mean.  I don't think we are at fault for the start of the war.  Yes, our position was made clear by FDR on which side we were on.  Lend-lease in the west and freezing the Japanese assets in the east probably led to the Pearl Harbor attack, but the origin of the war (not going back to Versailles) lies squarely with the Germans and Japanese.
Now if you say we did not conduct ourselves with high morals at all times, I would absolutely concur with that.  Gen Curtis LeMay's fire bombing campaign, as an example, is a systematic war crime.  But there's no denying that the Nazi party and the Japanese military were pure evil.  

I'm not in any way defending the German and Japanese military at the time, that's for sure.

LeMay's fire bombing campaigns: fail.

And Hiroshima, Nagasaki?  I've heard all the arguments favoring the decision to nuke those cities.  I still say: fail.

Japan would have never surrendered.  Millions upon millions would have been lost on both sides if there was an allied invasion. 

That debate, as represented by our differing views, will continue through out history, especially as almost all of those who were a part of that period of history are now gone. 

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

mcgruff10 said:

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

well did japan surrender after being fire bombed for months and months?  some of these firebombing inflicted more deaths than the atomic bomb so why didn't they surrender after losing iwo jima and okinawa if there was nothing left except for more firebombing?  using surrender percentages amongst active japanese personal in places like okinawa, iwo jima and even tarawa one can imply that the numbers of japanese deaths would be in the millions if the allies had invaded the homeland.  

no one likes atomic weapons but again what were the alternatives? more fire bombings which would have causes more deaths than hiroshima and nagasaki? an armed invasion which would have resulted in millions?  wait for the russians to mobilize in manchuria and then make japanese face a two front war which again would have resulted in millions of deaths?

July 17, 1945:

Just spent a couple of hours with Stalin. … He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about.

July 18, 1945 (“P.M.” refers to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill):

P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.