WWII

mrussel1

oftenreading said:

mcgruff10 said:

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

well did japan surrender after being fire bombed for months and months?  some of these firebombing inflicted more deaths than the atomic bomb so why didn't they surrender after losing iwo jima and okinawa if there was nothing left except for more firebombing?  using surrender percentages amongst active japanese personal in places like okinawa, iwo jima and even tarawa one can imply that the numbers of japanese deaths would be in the millions if the allies had invaded the homeland.  

no one likes atomic weapons but again what were the alternatives? more fire bombings which would have causes more deaths than hiroshima and nagasaki? an armed invasion which would have resulted in millions?  wait for the russians to mobilize in manchuria and then make japanese face a two front war which again would have resulted in millions of deaths?

Apparently we do know for sure that Japan was close to surrendering. In fact, Japan had approached Stalin asking for peace, and both Truman and Churchill were aware of this no later than July 18th. It's documented in Truman's own journal, the (abbreviated) entries of which are below:

July 17, 1945:

Just spent a couple of hours with Stalin. … He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about.

July 18, 1945 (“P.M.” refers to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill):

P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.

I just found this out today, in a blog post by an author I follow, who is writing a novel involving aspects of WWII.

Here's a link to Truman's diary online, with the full diary entries:

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/documents/fulltext.php?fulltextid=15

Does anyone know the terms of the surrender? Also,  obviously Stalin could never be trusted.  Is there any corrabarating evidence that they mention?

oftenreading

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

mcgruff10 said:

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

well did japan surrender after being fire bombed for months and months?  some of these firebombing inflicted more deaths than the atomic bomb so why didn't they surrender after losing iwo jima and okinawa if there was nothing left except for more firebombing?  using surrender percentages amongst active japanese personal in places like okinawa, iwo jima and even tarawa one can imply that the numbers of japanese deaths would be in the millions if the allies had invaded the homeland.  

no one likes atomic weapons but again what were the alternatives? more fire bombings which would have causes more deaths than hiroshima and nagasaki? an armed invasion which would have resulted in millions?  wait for the russians to mobilize in manchuria and then make japanese face a two front war which again would have resulted in millions of deaths?

Apparently we do know for sure that Japan was close to surrendering. In fact, Japan had approached Stalin asking for peace, and both Truman and Churchill were aware of this no later than July 18th. It's documented in Truman's own journal, the (abbreviated) entries of which are below:

July 17, 1945:

Just spent a couple of hours with Stalin. … He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about.

July 18, 1945 (“P.M.” refers to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill):

P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.

I just found this out today, in a blog post by an author I follow, who is writing a novel involving aspects of WWII.

Here's a link to Truman's diary online, with the full diary entries:

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/documents/fulltext.php?fulltextid=15

Does anyone know the terms of the surrender? Also,  obviously Stalin could never be trusted.  Is there any corrabarating evidence that they mention?

I don’t have any more knowledge about it than what I’ve posted. I read the page of the online diary but it seems like you can read the whole thing online if one wants to do that, so maybe there is more there. 
 

mrussel1

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

mcgruff10 said:

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

well did japan surrender after being fire bombed for months and months?  some of these firebombing inflicted more deaths than the atomic bomb so why didn't they surrender after losing iwo jima and okinawa if there was nothing left except for more firebombing?  using surrender percentages amongst active japanese personal in places like okinawa, iwo jima and even tarawa one can imply that the numbers of japanese deaths would be in the millions if the allies had invaded the homeland.  

no one likes atomic weapons but again what were the alternatives? more fire bombings which would have causes more deaths than hiroshima and nagasaki? an armed invasion which would have resulted in millions?  wait for the russians to mobilize in manchuria and then make japanese face a two front war which again would have resulted in millions of deaths?

Apparently we do know for sure that Japan was close to surrendering. In fact, Japan had approached Stalin asking for peace, and both Truman and Churchill were aware of this no later than July 18th. It's documented in Truman's own journal, the (abbreviated) entries of which are below:

July 17, 1945:

Just spent a couple of hours with Stalin. … He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about.

July 18, 1945 (“P.M.” refers to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill):

P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.

I just found this out today, in a blog post by an author I follow, who is writing a novel involving aspects of WWII.

Here's a link to Truman's diary online, with the full diary entries:

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/documents/fulltext.php?fulltextid=15

Does anyone know the terms of the surrender? Also,  obviously Stalin could never be trusted.  Is there any corrabarating evidence that they mention?

I don’t have any more knowledge about it than what I’ve posted. I read the page of the online diary but it seems like you can read the whole thing online if one wants to do that, so maybe there is more there. 
 

Yeah, I read it.  It's from the Postdam conference, so certainly interesting to read Truman's thoughts.  One can only imagine the intellectual gold that is being scribed daily from the White house as we speak, as Trump labors over the weight of his responsibilities.  

Anyway, it seems like there was an offer because of the line right after that Stalin has declined and Truman found the response satisfactory.  I imagine the terms were around no reparations, Japan keeping territory, etc.  There was no way that was going to fly.  It was unconditional surrender as the policy in both theaters.  

One thing that I have personally found very interesting:  I have been arguing for a while, with our protectionist friends here in the US (both on the far left and right) that free trade, the EU and "globalism" has been a key reason why we have had 80 years of intercontinental peace.  And that this new economic (and political) Nationalism was a threat to peace.  It seems Truman felt the same way, reading the last line of his diary posted.  Shared prosperity is the way to peace, always has been.  

I have offered a waterway program and a suggestion for free intercourse between Central European nations which will help keep future peace. Our only hope for good from the European War is restored prosperity to Europe and future trade with them. It is a sick situation at best.

Meltdown99

oftenreading said:

mcgruff10 said:

Aafke said:

Well lets see... history is written by winners, especialy in time of wars... You suspect Japan wasn't close to surrendering, but we do not know for sure... You suspect they would have made milions of causulties, but we do not know... 

During wars, both sides uses excesive violence, and in my opinion violence is never a great responce to violence, no country comes out with clean hands...

well did japan surrender after being fire bombed for months and months?  some of these firebombing inflicted more deaths than the atomic bomb so why didn't they surrender after losing iwo jima and okinawa if there was nothing left except for more firebombing?  using surrender percentages amongst active japanese personal in places like okinawa, iwo jima and even tarawa one can imply that the numbers of japanese deaths would be in the millions if the allies had invaded the homeland.  

no one likes atomic weapons but again what were the alternatives? more fire bombings which would have causes more deaths than hiroshima and nagasaki? an armed invasion which would have resulted in millions?  wait for the russians to mobilize in manchuria and then make japanese face a two front war which again would have resulted in millions of deaths?

Apparently we do know for sure that Japan was close to surrendering. In fact, Japan had approached Stalin asking for peace, and both Truman and Churchill were aware of this no later than July 18th. It's documented in Truman's own journal, the (abbreviated) entries of which are below:

July 17, 1945:

Just spent a couple of hours with Stalin. … He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about.

July 18, 1945 (“P.M.” refers to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill):

P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.

I just found this out today, in a blog post by an author I follow, who is writing a novel involving aspects of WWII.

Here's a link to Truman's diary online, with the full diary entries:

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/documents/fulltext.php?fulltextid=15

I guess Japan should have asked for peace from America first...