WWII

chadwick said:

this day is a big deal to me. later on after supper & whatnot, i'll be sitting my fat ass on down to watch some pearl harbor footage. in all actuality i do this often, it's just that today is the day & WWII guys amaze me to no end. if i were worth a damn i'd go to the VFW in hopes of buying some old-timer a cold beer... that is a lot to ask of a 90+ year old gentleman to find his way to a VFW for a mug of beer. those guys are the best

Yeah and it's sad that so many VFW's are suffering. The WWII generation really bolstered those organizations and many are floundering because there just aren't enough veterans to support them. In a sense I guess it's good that we haven't had major wars that resulted in tons of veterans but sad to see regardless.

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

chadwick said:

december 7, 1941
national pearl harbor remembrance day
75th year

It is really sad how so many have no idea what today is.

How have you made that determination?

Talking to people under 20.
I'm a teacher, if I have a quiz on this day I will make it an extra credit question.
It is a good class when 5 out of 30 know Pearl Harbor happened today.

Youd be shocked at their knowledge (or lack of) of 20th century history. Ten you'd know those clips of Late Show Jay-Walking are actually real.

I feel like it's because it was Hawaii and it was/is so geographically separated from the rest of the country. People can't visit the site easily and it wasn't near large cities. Will the same thing happen when the 75th anniversary of 9/11 occurs or because it's NY, will it be more prevalent in the annals of history?

tbergs said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

chadwick said:

december 7, 1941
national pearl harbor remembrance day
75th year

It is really sad how so many have no idea what today is.

How have you made that determination?

Talking to people under 20.
I'm a teacher, if I have a quiz on this day I will make it an extra credit question.
It is a good class when 5 out of 30 know Pearl Harbor happened today.

Youd be shocked at their knowledge (or lack of) of 20th century history. Ten you'd know those clips of Late Show Jay-Walking are actually real.

I feel like it's because it was Hawaii and it was/is so geographically separated from the rest of the country. People can't visit the site easily and it wasn't near large cities. Will the same thing happen when the 75th anniversary of 9/11 occurs or because it's NY, will it be more prevalent in the annals of history?

I have a different impression. To me there seem to be a lack of interest for anything that happened before their time. A lot of their 20th century knowledge seems lacking..
I've only ever been in low-income schools, but based off questions and conversations I would say at least half the students don't even know what century the civil war occurred, Bill Clinton was president (hopefully after this election they would do better), what century we became a nation. I'm talking about half of the kids couldn't even give a correct answer within 100 years. Its really sad.
But these were schools in high poverty places like south-central LA where there is a lot more for them to worry about.

mace1229 said:

tbergs said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

chadwick said:

december 7, 1941
national pearl harbor remembrance day
75th year

It is really sad how so many have no idea what today is.

How have you made that determination?

Talking to people under 20.
I'm a teacher, if I have a quiz on this day I will make it an extra credit question.
It is a good class when 5 out of 30 know Pearl Harbor happened today.

Youd be shocked at their knowledge (or lack of) of 20th century history. Ten you'd know those clips of Late Show Jay-Walking are actually real.

I feel like it's because it was Hawaii and it was/is so geographically separated from the rest of the country. People can't visit the site easily and it wasn't near large cities. Will the same thing happen when the 75th anniversary of 9/11 occurs or because it's NY, will it be more prevalent in the annals of history?

I have a different impression. To me there seem to be a lack of interest for anything that happened before their time. A lot of their 20th century knowledge seems lacking..
I've only ever been in low-income schools, but based off questions and conversations I would say at least half the students don't even know what century the civil war occurred, Bill Clinton was president (hopefully after this election they would do better), what century we became a nation. I'm talking about half of the kids couldn't even give a correct answer within 100 years. Its really sad.
But these were schools in high poverty places like south-central LA where there is a lot more for them to worry about.

I think it's fairly natural for kids to be disinterested in history when they are young. I was always interested but was an outlier. As you get older, interest grows. Wars before WWII are less accessible for kids because footage only exists in a limited way for the Great War and really nothing before. That does make it more difficult in today's world.

jnimhaoileoin said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

tbergs said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

chadwick said:

december 7, 1941
national pearl harbor remembrance day
75th year

It is really sad how so many have no idea what today is.

How have you made that determination?

Talking to people under 20.
I'm a teacher, if I have a quiz on this day I will make it an extra credit question.
It is a good class when 5 out of 30 know Pearl Harbor happened today.

Youd be shocked at their knowledge (or lack of) of 20th century history. Ten you'd know those clips of Late Show Jay-Walking are actually real.

I feel like it's because it was Hawaii and it was/is so geographically separated from the rest of the country. People can't visit the site easily and it wasn't near large cities. Will the same thing happen when the 75th anniversary of 9/11 occurs or because it's NY, will it be more prevalent in the annals of history?

I have a different impression. To me there seem to be a lack of interest for anything that happened before their time. A lot of their 20th century knowledge seems lacking..
I've only ever been in low-income schools, but based off questions and conversations I would say at least half the students don't even know what century the civil war occurred, Bill Clinton was president (hopefully after this election they would do better), what century we became a nation. I'm talking about half of the kids couldn't even give a correct answer within 100 years. Its really sad.
But these were schools in high poverty places like south-central LA where there is a lot more for them to worry about.

I think it's fairly natural for kids to be disinterested in history when they are young. I was always interested but was an outlier. As you get older, interest grows. Wars before WWII are less accessible for kids because footage only exists in a limited way for the Great War and really nothing before. That does make it more difficult in today's world.

I didn't even watch the news til I was 17, it took the Iraq war to get me engaged. As far as WWII goes, I am sorry to admit that I knew sod all about it until a couple of years ago when I happened to watch Band of Brothers and the Pacific. As Ireland wasn't involved, it's not something that's really talked about here. I have since developed enormous interest in it though and do my best to make up for my years of ignorance

Why did Ireland decide to stay neutral when the threat was so close?

jnimhaoileoin said:

mcgruff10 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

tbergs said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

chadwick said:

december 7, 1941
national pearl harbor remembrance day
75th year

It is really sad how so many have no idea what today is.

How have you made that determination?

Talking to people under 20.
I'm a teacher, if I have a quiz on this day I will make it an extra credit question.
It is a good class when 5 out of 30 know Pearl Harbor happened today.

Youd be shocked at their knowledge (or lack of) of 20th century history. Ten you'd know those clips of Late Show Jay-Walking are actually real.

I feel like it's because it was Hawaii and it was/is so geographically separated from the rest of the country. People can't visit the site easily and it wasn't near large cities. Will the same thing happen when the 75th anniversary of 9/11 occurs or because it's NY, will it be more prevalent in the annals of history?

I have a different impression. To me there seem to be a lack of interest for anything that happened before their time. A lot of their 20th century knowledge seems lacking..
I've only ever been in low-income schools, but based off questions and conversations I would say at least half the students don't even know what century the civil war occurred, Bill Clinton was president (hopefully after this election they would do better), what century we became a nation. I'm talking about half of the kids couldn't even give a correct answer within 100 years. Its really sad.
But these were schools in high poverty places like south-central LA where there is a lot more for them to worry about.

I think it's fairly natural for kids to be disinterested in history when they are young. I was always interested but was an outlier. As you get older, interest grows. Wars before WWII are less accessible for kids because footage only exists in a limited way for the Great War and really nothing before. That does make it more difficult in today's world.

I didn't even watch the news til I was 17, it took the Iraq war to get me engaged. As far as WWII goes, I am sorry to admit that I knew sod all about it until a couple of years ago when I happened to watch Band of Brothers and the Pacific. As Ireland wasn't involved, it's not something that's really talked about here. I have since developed enormous interest in it though and do my best to make up for my years of ignorance

Why did Ireland decide to stay neutral when the threat was so close?

Ha, it's complicated! We were never under threat from Germany though, even if they did accidentally drop a bomb on us one night. As a relatively new state at the time, we quite wisely decided to stay out of it. The British had killed enough of our people, we weren't about to go out and lose more fighting alongside them. That's the blunt answer but also the honest one. Like I said though, it's complicated

I think it boils down to....the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And the British relationship with Ireland was not good.

Man, the vets are vanishing before our eyes. If you still know a WW2 vet talk to them and be amazed by them.  I wish i still had those family members in my life.  Always so fascinating to discuss the war with these brave men.  

cp3iverson said:

While we tend to complain about silly things and crooked politicians on both sides lets remember The Battle of the Bulge.  Those heroes spent Christmas and three straight weeks in the snow fighting off Hitler’s last big effort to take control of the war. 

It’s understandable how for many survivors Christmas was a dark time for the rest of their lives. Having their buddies disintegrated by German 88’s. 

My Uncle Mike was in the 99th Infantry which saw significant action at the Bulge.  He was actually captured in that battle and spent the rest of the war in a German stalag.  

cp3iverson said:

Man, the vets are vanishing before our eyes. If you still know a WW2 vet talk to them and be amazed by them.  I wish i still had those family members in my life.  Always so fascinating to discuss the war with these brave men.  

That was one of the many things that went through my mind when my Pop died last month.  He was 96 going on 97 so you know he was among the very last of the WWII vets.  He had many stories about his time in the U.S. Navy in the Solomon Islands.  He was an aviation machinist mate.  I once asked him which part of the airplanes he worked on and he said, "Oh, pretty much everything from the propeller to the tail."  Now all I can do is recall those stories, never to hear them again.

I have a complicated relationship with WW2.
On the one hand, I can't deny that it is an immensely interesting topic to learn about, on the other hand, I've always been bothered by it's role in glorifying war and sanitising the complicated nature of global war.
It always gets boiled down to "us good, them bad, kick ass" and the reality is alot dirtier than that.
It's heavily used to drum up jingoism and all perspective goes out the window.
Pearl Harbor is a great example.
It was a small attack on a military base that resulted in fewer than 3,000 lives lost (only a few dozen civilians) and people revere it like it was one of the most atrocious abominations ever to occur.
The ramifications of that attack are undeniably massive, but it isn't so much celebrated and remembered as a momentous event of consequence, it's more remembered as this monolithic tragedy that is without parallel.
Of course it was a tragedy, but put in perspective with our incursions in that war and beyond, it's a blip, a minor sortie with minimal casualty.
It's this grandiosity in remembrance that grates on me.
Another small example, you'd think from the lore surrounding Rosie the Riveter that women had never been a part of the workforce before the start of the war, but of course women had been getting down and dirty since the earliest beginnings of the industrial revolution.  
The US had an active propaganda machine to rival any in the Axis, and since we won resoundingly, the influence of that propaganda never abated.  Christians that wouldn't swear on anything suddenly pledging allegiance to a flag, anti-communist fervour, etc etc.

I just wish it was easier to talk about WW2 honestly, confronting it in all it's complex ugliness without such childish pride in being the home team victors.