Off the deep end... (U.S. pulls out of Paris Agreement)

HesCalledDyer said:

Kat said:

He's doing it so you won't be talking about Russia. 
It has far-reaching consequences for sure but it has a purpose for him and he couldn't care less what it does to the country. I firmly believe this. :(

You're definitely not alone in that thought.

There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

PJ_Soul said:

Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.

How has he screwed over the US? 

If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.

How has he screwed over the US? 

If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

brianlux said:

The other thing to remember in all this is that the Paris Agreement itself is not enough to stem anthropogenic global warming.  This gets into a long and elaborate scientific discussion but there's still plenty of good information to back this on NOAA, ucsusa.org, 350.org and realclimate.org, all solidly science based sites.

I will go a step further and say the Agreement did NOTHING, Zero, Nada. Any country could do whatever it wanted at any time and not be in violation of the Agreement. An Agreement with no substance, as with most things Obama did.  High on style. Low on substance.

The rest of what you say is the key to getting things done. And when folks like Musk, et. al figure out a way to make non-coal based energies financially efficient, we will have the first major step in our solution.  A bunch of Diplomats patting themselves on the back, but doing nothing does exactly that - nothing.

Be worried about how much investment countries make in research of real, efficient solutions. Not how good their leaders think they look shaking hands. 

brianlux said:

EdsonNascimento said:

There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

An impressive argument, Edison.  If you're correct (and your logic seems solid to me) this could turn into an unintentional plus for environmental concerns and we'd do well to take a plus in that regard just about any way we can get it.

And, BTW, what makes you think this wasn't Trump's intention? Everyone keeps forgetting that he is a Democrat at heart - other than the political correctness.  If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

You can focus on the surface.  Hey, Obama perfected and lulled us into that.  But, when you begin to think of the ACTUAL ends certain things have vs. the means by which they are being done, your view on things changes a bit.

(And, for the record, I'm not saying it is his intention. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to him, so would have no idea unlike apparently everyone else.  But, somehow he's gotten by ok in life.  That doesn't happen by accident. - But think - when he exited the Agreement, you don't think someone told him - you know, the actual exit doesn't happen until 2020 in time for the next election cycle?)

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.

How has he screwed over the US? 

If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

How is this isolating the US?

By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

EdsonNascimento said:

brianlux said:

EdsonNascimento said:

There was no requirements of this agreement. He could have accomplished the same exact thing by not doing anything with regard to the actual agreement. At least he is up front about what he is doing. But, you folks should all learn the actual facts of what's going on rather than using red herrings. You are actually playing right into what Trump is trying to do (and it is not to divert from Russia - the media is adept at handling multiple things when they have axes to grind). However, you're focused on an agreement that had no real effect.

If anything, it has brought more attention to the topic. However, the US can still do what it wants to do (As it could within the agreement), Companies can still do what they want to do (Aside from what the US gov't regulates them to do).  And BTW, the formal exit coincides with the next election. So, he's done you a favor.  He's removed us from an agreement that has no requirements to do anything, thus bringing the issue into the light for a time now, and then if the candidates of the time see fit could be a central component of a Presidential campaign.  What's not to like about that if this is your issue?

So, the removal from the agreement has no real impact.  The actions related to it do, but as I said - he could have done that with the agreement still in place. 

I mean - how stupid that Elon Musk leaves his advisory board b/c of this - so, now he will have more to say in the Trump Administration?   The fact is Musk didn't need to be on that committee anyway, so this was probably just a convenient out for him. But, folks have gone completely nuts reacting to stuff that has no meaning.

I'm sure most of you still believe your Queen when she says her loss had everything to do with everyone and everything else except her.....

An impressive argument, Edison.  If you're correct (and your logic seems solid to me) this could turn into an unintentional plus for environmental concerns and we'd do well to take a plus in that regard just about any way we can get it.

And, BTW, what makes you think this wasn't Trump's intention? Everyone keeps forgetting that he is a Democrat at heart - other than the political correctness.  If you start looking at things he's doing through a Machiavellian prism, you might have a different view on what he's been doing.

You can focus on the surface.  Hey, Obama perfected and lulled us into that.  But, when you begin to think of the ACTUAL ends certain things have vs. the means by which they are being done, your view on things changes a bit.

(And, for the record, I'm not saying it is his intention. I have no idea. I haven't spoken to him, so would have no idea unlike apparently everyone else.  But, somehow he's gotten by ok in life.  That doesn't happen by accident. - But think - when he exited the Agreement, you don't think someone told him - you know, the actual exit doesn't happen until 2020 in time for the next election cycle?)

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

Embarrassing. Trump is screwing America over with this one. Just in terms of foreign relations, this is idiotic, but it's also a huge mistake economically and socially, long term. Trump has essentially declared that America is no longer interested in moving forward with the rest of the world, let alone interested in being an international leader. This decision is incredibly isolating for the US.

How has he screwed over the US? 

If the US is isolated and not an international leader anymore by doing this, then shouldn't it not matter?   You guys need to focus on the issue and not the person. 

I am focusing on the issue and not the person, and said what the issues are. I'm not sure how you figured from that post that I was focusing on the person and not the issue.... Anyway, it matters that the US is becoming isolated and is not an international leader anymore. That is the whole point. America has a HUGE impact on the world's economy and its politics, so it becoming isolated is kind of a big deal. I would think that most Americans wouldn't be interested in America becoming isolationist while it basically rejects the next major global industry in favour of oil and coal. Also, it matters because the USA is the second biggest polluter on the face of the planet, so it not being on board with this is troubling on an environmental level that effects everyone on the planet. Yeah, it matters. You seem to think that Trump and friends will actually start doing some environmentally responsible stuff whether they are a part of this agreement or not.... where'd you get that idea?? I haven't seen anything suggesting that. There is meaning behind the rejection of the agreement. More actions will follow this one. Finally, just on a political/foreign relations level, it matter for America economically. This will almost certainly reduce investment in America.

How is this isolating the US?

By being the only nation in the world besides Syria and Nicaragua to join in on this global agreement that entails international cooperation, which leads to international collaboration, and clear paths to mutually beneficial investing and trade. Also, it is a massive symbol in general for Trump's unwillingness to work with the rest of the world in good faith. This on top of all his NATO stuff, bitching out Germany for its cars, and the list goes on and on. This refusal to get on board with what every other country in the world knows is a good idea is like icing on the uncooperative cake. And I think we all know that it's not a matter of Trump and friends knowing better than every other government on the face of the planet besides Syria and Nicaragua. It's not like Trump and Friends have wonderful, enlightened ideas that will outsmart everyone else who signed the agreement. I dunno, sometimes I get the impression that there is a group of people who actually think that Trump is on to something brilliant or smart or something .... but to me and, it seems, most of the planet, that seems patently ridiculous. America has literally become a dangerous laughing stock to the world because of its new government. I don't see how one can't see just that as isolating, let alone the refusal to sign the Paris agreement.

So, your theory is the US will no longer be an important part of the International community?

If yes, my follow up question is - Is that a theory you really want to stick with?

No, that's not my theory at all. My theory is that the US is more and more an important negative and harmful part of the international community as Trump engages in isolationist measures, while I assume most would prefer for America to be a positive force that inspires other nations to collaborate with it and to invest in it. I'm under the impression that American culture and politics and its economy are at least partially built on the idea that the nation is "the leader of the free world". That label has actually had real implications inside and outside of America, in many ways. I think that Trump is doing a fairly good job of ensuring that that is no longer the case. Of course, that could work out for the best for other countries, in the long run. But I don't see any way it could work out well for America.

But, if we are isolating ourselves, how can we have ANY part in the International Community?   I guess I don't understand what isolate means.