Multiple Fatalities- Ariana Grande Concert

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

CM189191 said:

riley540 said:

Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.

Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.

Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.

Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.

Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.

yeah, because homosexuals' biggest issue over the past 100 years has been not getting a job at Tim Horton's because of too much "flair".

Homosexuals in North America fare about as well as they do in, oh... say Saudi Arabia? Is this what you are saying? Or are you saying forget the progress we have made and focus on when we treated gays really poorly because the 'now' counts for not?

We aren't perfect, but we are a far cry from throwing gays off buildings, public stonings for women accused of adultery, or simply beating a woman to death because someone said she threw a Quran away.

oh jesus, here we go. yep, that's exactly what I fucking said.

for fuck's sakes.

Well then what the f**k were you saying? You were getting at something.

my2hands · May 2017

any candlelight vigils or facebook avatars for the 2 million Muslims killed by the War On Terror?

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2017

my2hands said:

any candlelight vigils or facebook avatars for the 2 million Muslims killed by the War On Terror?

I understand their anger. I just disapprove of their tactics.

With that said... and this might come across as a bit hypocritical... what recourse do they have? If some drone flew over my home, bombed it, and killed my daughter or son... I'd be looking for blood.

I have no answer for the problems Bush et al created for us. I do know that the Afghanistan people smoked the Russians though and their resolve is admirably strong. How does this end?

unsung · May 2017

my2hands said:

riley540 said:

I think the religious texts are all pretty fucked. But most Christian people deny the shifty stuff.

you don't think most Muslims deny the shitty stuff? a few assholes speak for billions?

Why not? Plenty of people here want gun control based on a few assholes. In fact many here have said you are only a law abiding gun owner until you aren't. Same logic, no?

riley540 · May 2017

I love Pearl Jam. This band has helped me through some hard times, and assisted me in the best times. I don't always agree with Ed. But I have admiration for anyone who has an opinion and can artistically showcase it. I don't think there's one person on planet earth I fully agree with. I love seeing the diverse fan base and hearing everyone's different ideas and opinions. Just know that if I respond to people in disagreement, I'm never mad. I respect you all and you all have great things to add to the conversation. Progression begins with conversation, and Pearl Jam has allowed us this forum. So for that I'm thankful

CM189191 · May 2017

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^

Um, apostasy is punished by death under Sharia Law. Enough to drive one batty wouldn't you think?

Working 2nd shift for a change, comrade ?

my2hands · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

my2hands said:

any candlelight vigils or facebook avatars for the 2 million Muslims killed by the War On Terror?

I understand their anger. I just disapprove of their tactics.

With that said... and this might come across as a bit hypocritical... what recourse do they have? If some drone flew over my home, bombed it, and killed my daughter or son... I'd be looking for blood.

I have no answer for the problems Bush et al created for us. I do know that the Afghanistan people smoked the Russians though and their resolve is admirably strong. How does this end?

everybody disapproves of their tactics, except for the EXTREMELY small minority they represent

mace1229 · May 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Almost no one has painted all muslims as terrorists. in fact, I see more anti-Christian comments on this forum than any other religion.
Maybe by interpretation is wrong, but it comes across to me as defensive when in nearly every terrorist attack many hesitate, or even refuse to call it islamic terrorism. The Orlando shooting I remember reading comments on here saying it had nothing to do with Islam, but was anti-gay, even though he clearly had ties to radical Islam. It only took 2 or 3 posts on this topic before more than 1 person was saying don't blame radical Islam. I interpret someone saying don't blame an organization who is clearly at fault in the majority of these cases as defending them, and it is typically those seem people who decide to switch the blame to Christians and point out ever awful deed someone did who identified as Christian. There's a reason why any time you hear of a bomb in a train, bus, school or arena the majority automatically connect it to radical Islam. Although I'm sure there are more, I can only think of 1 or 2 major events in the last 20 years that killed dozens of people that wasn't tied to radical Islam.
Now I'm not in the boat that says we can't solve this problem unless you call it what it is. I just don't understand why every time something does happen there seem to be those who chose to defend radical Islam (and not acknowledging it is defending it in my opinion) and pin Christianity as a bigger terrorist threat by pointing out 2 or 3 cases in the last 30 years where an offender happened to be Christian.

first, no one, EVER, has defended radical islam. they have only defended islam. there is a difference. people merely state that calling it radical islam paints the picture to the ignorant that islam is to blame, when it is clearly not. radicalization in any form is to blame. are there oppressive and bad parts of the faith? yep. when people come back with "well so does christianity", it's not to deflect, but in an attempt to open the eyes to the hypocrisy. there are MANY things that are said in the bible that are ABHORENT. MOST christians don't practice them anymore. some do, but most don't. some practice the oppressive portions of islam. most don't. but the perception is still there that islam is evil.

second, many people on this forum (many have been banned) have stated very clearly their anti-islamic stances.

third, yes, there is anti-christian sentiment on this forum, but usually only as a retort to being confronted with some type of nonsensical judgement by a christian.

I would agree with most of that. No one has defending the actions of radical Islam, but some have denied it is a problem and a root to many of the violent acts and that is what I meant by defending it. I intentionally use "Radical Islam" to separate the radicals from the rest. Radicals, as everyone knows, makes up a very small fraction of Islam.
I was going to argue the motivation behind the Christian comparison argument. I've seen plenty of posts where Christianity is brought up out of the blue and used as a negative label against people here, much like calling someone a communist was several decades ago. Which never offended me, kinda found it amusing actually. But reading some other posts, you may have a point to that.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · May 2017

CM189191 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^

Um, apostasy is punished by death under Sharia Law. Enough to drive one batty wouldn't you think?

Working 2nd shift for a change, comrade ?

Just stating facts is all.

OMGkatwoman · May 2017

England just raised their threat level to critical, based on new evidence that another attack may be eminent, military has been deployed

PJ_Soul · May 2017

Go Beavers said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

Jason P said:

So it's possible that a few committed people planned in advance (most fucked up part) and decided to blow themselves up at an Ariana Grande concert in front of a bunch of little girls ...

Religious leaders need to step up and LEAD sooner then later. To bad that there is a lack of education, maybe suppression is the better term

It's not a religious issue.

I disagree with that. Why do you think it's not a religious issue? As far as the terrorists are concerned, however fucked up in their fanatical beliefs, it is very much a religious issue.

Because it's no longer Islam at that point. The same way people will say someone isn't following Christianity when they personally are motivated to kill by what they believe is Christianity.

That doesn't make any difference. A screwy, warped religion is still a religion (well, in relative terms - they are all screwy and warped, but some are more screwy and warped than others). Just because it isn't about moderate Islam it doesn't mean that it's any less a religious issue. Also, fanatical Islam is very much an issue that all Muslims should be concerned about. Whether they are you like it or not, it IS an Islamic issue, which is, of course, necessarily a religious one.

Go Beavers · May 2017

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

Jason P said:

So it's possible that a few committed people planned in advance (most fucked up part) and decided to blow themselves up at an Ariana Grande concert in front of a bunch of little girls ...

Religious leaders need to step up and LEAD sooner then later. To bad that there is a lack of education, maybe suppression is the better term

It's not a religious issue.

I disagree with that. Why do you think it's not a religious issue? As far as the terrorists are concerned, however fucked up in their fanatical beliefs, it is very much a religious issue.

Because it's no longer Islam at that point. The same way people will say someone isn't following Christianity when they personally are motivated to kill by what they believe is Christianity.

That doesn't make any difference. A screwy, warped religion is still a religion (well, in relative terms - they are all screwy and warped, but some are more screwy and warped than others). Just because it isn't about moderate Islam it doesn't mean that it's any less a religious issue. Also, fanatical Islam is very much an issue that all Muslims should be concerned about. Whether they are you like it or not, it IS an Islamic issue, which is, of course, necessarily a religious one.

So fanatical Christianity is also a religious issue that Christians should be concerned about?

PJ_Soul · May 2017

tbergs said:

PJ_Soul said:

riley540 said:

I think the religious texts are all pretty fucked. But most Christian people deny the shifty stuff. Lots of good charity work done from all religions which I appreciate. Just can't get into the cultu judgey thing.

I used to attend a baptist church that was pretty nutty, but the amount of work they did for less fortunate people locally and globally was outstanding. So I can't dog them too hard. Great people stuck in some old school beliefs.

You don't need religion to do those good things though. Atheists do good work for the less fortunate too. Religion is bullshit, and I think attributing good acts to the existence of religion is like saying all of those people wouldn't help anyone if it weren't for their Church. Well, if that's true, they are actually jerks.

I am genuinely intrigued to hear you say all religion is bullshit, but then in another thread you have mentioned it is rude for someone to wear a hat during the anthem. Generalizing that religion is bullshit is discrediting the good that it does for a lot of people who have nothing to do with violence, inequality or any other wrongful act. Some people have chosen religion as their form of community and that is great for them. Personally, not my thing, but the only one's who piss me off are the fanatics who seem to think it makes them better people or that they have some sort of higher moral ground. That can be said about most groups though. The Pearl Jam Ten Club is a group of people who mostly believe they are the best band ever, but among that same group are the detractors on both ends of the spectrum; the fanatics.

I will never ever apologize for bashing religion, and that doesn't mean that I don't think people should mind their manners in public. I really don't see what one has to do with the other. Why are you intrigued that I have both of those opinions?
I think the very idea of the existence of God is ludicrous, that religion has and still does WAY more harm than good. Religion is not required for people to be good, so that whole "does a lot of good" argument holds no water for me. It's a moot point. It has absolutely nothing to do with generalizing. If there weren't any violent fanatics, I would still hate religion for a bunch of other good reasons.... But that is definitely not the topic of this thread.

Attaway77 · May 2017

Such a shame this has happened. Now the news reports how she is back "home" safe after all of this. This "home" she said she absolutely hates... It's amazing how so many people say one thing, believe in another thing but don't do a damn thing but talk..... We live in a fucked up world, that's the reality of it all.... It's always been crazy, just go back and research history. This is just the time we have to live in and that's unfortunate but a reality..

PJ_Soul · May 2017

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Almost no one has painted all muslims as terrorists. in fact, I see more anti-Christian comments on this forum than any other religion.
Maybe by interpretation is wrong, but it comes across to me as defensive when in nearly every terrorist attack many hesitate, or even refuse to call it islamic terrorism. The Orlando shooting I remember reading comments on here saying it had nothing to do with Islam, but was anti-gay, even though he clearly had ties to radical Islam. It only took 2 or 3 posts on this topic before more than 1 person was saying don't blame radical Islam. I interpret someone saying don't blame an organization who is clearly at fault in the majority of these cases as defending them, and it is typically those seem people who decide to switch the blame to Christians and point out ever awful deed someone did who identified as Christian. There's a reason why any time you hear of a bomb in a train, bus, school or arena the majority automatically connect it to radical Islam. Although I'm sure there are more, I can only think of 1 or 2 major events in the last 20 years that killed dozens of people that wasn't tied to radical Islam.
Now I'm not in the boat that says we can't solve this problem unless you call it what it is. I just don't understand why every time something does happen there seem to be those who chose to defend radical Islam (and not acknowledging it is defending it in my opinion) and pin Christianity as a bigger terrorist threat by pointing out 2 or 3 cases in the last 30 years where an offender happened to be Christian.

first, no one, EVER, has defended radical islam. they have only defended islam. there is a difference. people merely state that calling it radical islam paints the picture to the ignorant that islam is to blame, when it is clearly not. radicalization in any form is to blame. are there oppressive and bad parts of the faith? yep. when people come back with "well so does christianity", it's not to deflect, but in an attempt to open the eyes to the hypocrisy. there are MANY things that are said in the bible that are ABHORENT. MOST christians don't practice them anymore. some do, but most don't. some practice the oppressive portions of islam. most don't. but the perception is still there that islam is evil.

second, many people on this forum (many have been banned) have stated very clearly their anti-islamic stances.

third, yes, there is anti-christian sentiment on this forum, but usually only as a retort to being confronted with some type of nonsensical judgement by a christian.

I would agree with most of that. No one has defending the actions of radical Islam, but some have denied it is a problem and a root to many of the violent acts and that is what I meant by defending it. I intentionally use "Radical Islam" to separate the radicals from the rest. Radicals, as everyone knows, makes up a very small fraction of Islam.
I was going to argue the motivation behind the Christian comparison argument. I've seen plenty of posts where Christianity is brought up out of the blue and used as a negative label against people here, much like calling someone a communist was several decades ago. Which never offended me, kinda found it amusing actually. But reading some other posts, you may have a point to that.

Nobody has EVER denied that radical Islam is a problem, nor has anybody ever denied that it has been the cause of many terrorist attacks.

Go Beavers · May 2017

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Almost no one has painted all muslims as terrorists. in fact, I see more anti-Christian comments on this forum than any other religion.
Maybe by interpretation is wrong, but it comes across to me as defensive when in nearly every terrorist attack many hesitate, or even refuse to call it islamic terrorism. The Orlando shooting I remember reading comments on here saying it had nothing to do with Islam, but was anti-gay, even though he clearly had ties to radical Islam. It only took 2 or 3 posts on this topic before more than 1 person was saying don't blame radical Islam. I interpret someone saying don't blame an organization who is clearly at fault in the majority of these cases as defending them, and it is typically those seem people who decide to switch the blame to Christians and point out ever awful deed someone did who identified as Christian. There's a reason why any time you hear of a bomb in a train, bus, school or arena the majority automatically connect it to radical Islam. Although I'm sure there are more, I can only think of 1 or 2 major events in the last 20 years that killed dozens of people that wasn't tied to radical Islam.
Now I'm not in the boat that says we can't solve this problem unless you call it what it is. I just don't understand why every time something does happen there seem to be those who chose to defend radical Islam (and not acknowledging it is defending it in my opinion) and pin Christianity as a bigger terrorist threat by pointing out 2 or 3 cases in the last 30 years where an offender happened to be Christian.

first, no one, EVER, has defended radical islam. they have only defended islam. there is a difference. people merely state that calling it radical islam paints the picture to the ignorant that islam is to blame, when it is clearly not. radicalization in any form is to blame. are there oppressive and bad parts of the faith? yep. when people come back with "well so does christianity", it's not to deflect, but in an attempt to open the eyes to the hypocrisy. there are MANY things that are said in the bible that are ABHORENT. MOST christians don't practice them anymore. some do, but most don't. some practice the oppressive portions of islam. most don't. but the perception is still there that islam is evil.

second, many people on this forum (many have been banned) have stated very clearly their anti-islamic stances.

third, yes, there is anti-christian sentiment on this forum, but usually only as a retort to being confronted with some type of nonsensical judgement by a christian.

I would agree with most of that. No one has defending the actions of radical Islam, but some have denied it is a problem and a root to many of the violent acts and that is what I meant by defending it. I intentionally use "Radical Islam" to separate the radicals from the rest. Radicals, as everyone knows, makes up a very small fraction of Islam.
I was going to argue the motivation behind the Christian comparison argument. I've seen plenty of posts where Christianity is brought up out of the blue and used as a negative label against people here, much like calling someone a communist was several decades ago. Which never offended me, kinda found it amusing actually. But reading some other posts, you may have a point to that.

Radical Islam is not the root of terrorism. To fight radical Islam as a goal to end terrorism will only exacerbate the problem. As with any human problem, you find the actual roots of it when you're going to intervene. "Radical Islam" is one form of fundamentalist thinking under which people can be manipulated to do extreme things.

Go Beavers · May 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

CM189191 said:

riley540 said:

Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.

Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.

Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.

Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.

Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.

how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?

Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.

I have kept up just fine thanks.

so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.

No.

It's not even close. What are you talking about?

First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.

Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.

Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.

Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.

Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.

ElderlyWomanOH · May 2017

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021252/uploads/editor/ot/45byxpgd4hz6.jpg

So many similarities. Radicals can be of any religion. Crusades, KKK, white supremacy, ISIS - members of all of these consider/considered themselves religious. Do not hate the religion, hate the radicalization.

riley540 · May 2017

It's impossible to prove, ot disprove god.

my2hands · May 2017

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

CM189191 said:

riley540 said:

Why do we all act like Islam is a good thing? Have you seen how women in Islamic communities are treated? And homosexuals? Sure, believe what you want, but don't put down others. Women can't even show their faces or have any standing in society. :( it's not a good religion. Sorry, just being honest. And I'm not defending Christianity.

Why do we act like religion is good thing? There are no good religions.

Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on.

Again... rushing to the defence of Islam.

Stoning a woman to death who is buried chest high in the street because she was accused of infidelity (in front of a cheering crowd no less) is a far cry from not hiring one.

how is what he said "rushing" to defend it? can you describe what "rushing to defend" even means, and why you think that anyone defending anything you disagree with to be "rushing" to do so?

Because any time anyone makes any legitimate critical remark towards Islam... he attempts to rationalize it. Keep up.

I have kept up just fine thanks.

so the same, inverse argument could be made about you: rushing to criticize.

No.

It's not even close. What are you talking about?

First... there's the big stretch trying to suggest anti government types like Breivik (who isn't even a Christian) and McVeigh are 'Christian terrorists'.

Second... even if one insisted on believing these acts by these idiots were borne from Christian ideals... they are isolated events and separated by decades of time- hardly anything at all like what we are experiencing by radical Islam in terms of persistence and methodology.

Even in the best case scenario for someone badly wanting others to 'have the perspective' that Islamic terror has its close rivals.

Third... when someone suggests the nationwide treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent... an immediate response is to claim that 'Equality for gays and women is an area nearly every culture needs to make progress on'... so, in other words, it's no different there than here. Which... is wrong.

Bin Laden was also anti-US government. The same motivation as McVeigh.

That's actually a very good point... he felt we overstepped our bounds by setting up military shop in Saudi Arabia... much like McVeigh felt the govt over stepped at Ruby Ridge

Excellent point

Multiple Fatalities- Ariana Grande Concert

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