Obamacare is a mess

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PP193448 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.

water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.

I like that analogy, completely free healthcare I can see some abuse without strict regulations.
But you get free power?!

no, PP said power to your home should be free. I disagree.

HughFreakingDillon said:

PP193448 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.

water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.

You are missing the point. I'm giving expamples of other items that are necessary for survival and health. And I continue to say that emergent healthcare should be available to everyone. The major fucking problem is that soooooo much treatment is not life threatening and detrimental to the patient. Healthcare is abused in the US. It's a problem that will not get any better if healthcare was free.

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

ElderlyWomanOH said:

Illegal immigrants = approximately 3.5% of the US population, down from 4%.

According to my aunt, who gets all of her info from Fox, they are closer to 10-20% of the population and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and living on welfare.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

Like I said, you can find quotes that put it at anywhere from 8 - 40 million. For every source that puts it at 10-12 million, you can find one that puts it at 30-40. But none are really accurate, as they are here illegally and there is no paperwork, documentation or anything to track them. 8 million is on the low end often based on data of how many were caught, escaped or imprisoned and 40 is on the high end. Reality is, if someone sneaks into this country, lives without committing a crime and or using fake ID, no one would know they are here.
What none of those numbers include are the children who are citizens, which are estimated to be even higher. That matters because you have parents who are working illegally so they are not participating in a healthcare system, but the children would qualify.
Again, I'm not trying to blame them, I'm just saying the solution isn't as easy as "other countries do it."
We do need a new unique system for our culture.

so would you include coverage for illegals, or do you think it should be denied to them? I don't know what I'd answer, to be honest.

That is tough.
The right human thing to do is help those in need. I don't know how to do that without collapsing the system.
Healthcare in Canada, or anywhere, is not free. You pay for it through your taxes. Anyone accepting healthcare and illegally not paying taxes is stealing. In those cases they should be helped, but there should be a consequence or a method to return payment.

Children are the hardest to consider. No child should go without proper care because their parents did something wrong. Universal free healthcare for anyone under 18 I would be more open to, but then again parents should still be responsible for their children.

I think back to unemployment and other forms of public assistance. You can get unemployment for 2 years now. It is ridiculous. I know several people who turned down jobs because they could live off unemployment so why work for 40 hours a week to make a little more? I know people who couldn't get a job filled for the same reason. That assistance is designed to keep you afloat when the storm comes, it doesn't mean you get a free ride. When something is free it gets abused. In order to pick up your unemployment check you should show proof of 15 hours of community service that week, still gives you 25 hours of job searching and interviews during the normal work hours. How many would suddenly find work if that was the case?

For healthcare, treat everyone. If you're paying into a system then it isn't free, you've paid for it. If you are illegally avoiding paying into the system by any means, then you are stealing from the government and healthcare providers. Set up some documentation so they can be tracked and the cost recovered (the government has given anyone here legally a number to track us, illegals should not be exempt from that), contact any employer, garnish 10% of the wages to cover the cost of the care that was stolen. If they refuse or attempt to avoid payment send them to jail or community service if they are here legally, send them back if they aren't - they got a fair chance to make it right and didn't.
Probably a terrible idea, just what I came up with in less than a minute. Imagine what intelligent officials can do when they work on a plan for a year.

PP193448 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PP193448 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

And for the record... stop blaming people in need of health care for costs associated with their need. Start blaming hospitals and insurance companies for gouging the 'consumers'. Essential services should not fleece the consumer.

There is some blame to the consumer who abuses the product. Most of blame is to hospitals and insurance companies. The only thing that should be free and isn't is water. Funny how you absolutely need water to survive, yet you pay for it and it is not free to your home. Otherwise we should have free water, free septic to remove unhealthy waste and free power to run our needed home electricity like heating/cooling, refrigerator, etc. The idea of free healthcare does not exist. Someone has to pay for it. There should be some responsibility by the consumer, especially for healthcare that is not life threatening and emergency.

water to your home (for washing and laundry, etc) shouldn't be free. if it was, people would take 30 minute showers without giving a fuck. water to drink should be. and honestly, it is, if you are willing to go looking for it. plus, it falls from the fucking sky. you can't get much freer than that. I have about 3 tonnes of it in my front yard right now.

why should get free power and not free healthcare? power to your home is worthless if you are dead.

You are missing the point. I'm giving expamples of other items that are necessary for survival and health. And I continue to say that emergent healthcare should be available to everyone. The major fucking problem is that soooooo much treatment is not life threatening and detrimental to the patient. Healthcare is abused in the US. It's a problem that will not get any better if healthcare was free.

that part is also a problem in Canada. too many people go to the ER when it isn't needed. But most walk in clinics aren't open on off hours or on holidays. so the ER gets jammed with people with anxiety attacks they think are heart attacks. I wouldn't necessarily call it abuse, more than I would call it misuse. people get scared they are about to die, so they go to the ER. we have a phone service in Winnipeg, I'm sure other places have it, called Healthlinks. You can call and ask what your symptoms mean, but more often than not, they'd be liable if they said "don't worry about it, just stay home and get some rest" and that person died. I've called a few times in the past (I don't bother anymore), and they always say "well, it's probably (this), but it could be (that), and (that) could be life threatening, so you should probably go to the ER just to get checked". it honestly seems like a waste of resources to me, with obvious good intentions. maybe it does calm people into not going, maybe it doesn't. I don't know if they keep stats, or if they could even track how useful it is since when you call they don't take your personal info.

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.

You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.

You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.

I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?

What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.

You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.

I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?

What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."

Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.

You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.

I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?

What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."

Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.

No, you missed my point then. My stance was a system cannot be supported when more people take from it than put in. Unless you want to grossly overcharge those who do pay in (assuming it would be for all).
Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

This is probably one of the worst arguments against a single payer system that I've seen. You know the only healthcare illegals receive is emergency room treatment. They don't get Medicais currently and no one is claiming racism for that.

You know for a fact if Trump were to announce today free healthcare for all citizens, many would protest it is racially motivated against illegal Hispanics. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the world.
And how is the argument that covering people who don't pay into a system will bleed it a bad argument? That's like saying we should give social security benefits to everyone, even if they never paid into SS. That's not even the case and SS is still expected to collapse. If we give out more healthcare coverage than we take it in will collapse, unless we grossly overcharge those paying into it. ER visits are 100 times more expensive than a family practice doctor visit anyway, so I'm not sure where you are going with that argument if that's all they use.

I'm going with that argument because illegals don't get Medicaid, and there's no cry of racism, which makes your hypothesis false. We could have a single payer system for citizens and green card holders only. If a few people want to fuss about that requirement, who cares?

What about other rights, like education? Who cares about education too, I mean education is less important that health, so if some want to fuss that we no longer educate illegals, then who cares?
I worked in a community in South-Central LA, and about 2/3 of the kids I worked with were either illegal, or had illegal parents. That city would burn, literally, if you announced that everyone was getting free healthcare except for them.
it isn't just a "few people" that you can shrug your shoulders about and say "who cares."

Your whole stance is based on what you think might happen out of protest. I'm factoring in the current reality.

No, you missed my point then. My stance was a system cannot be supported when more people take from it than put in. Unless you want to grossly overcharge those who do pay in (assuming it would be for all).
Protests and riots would be the impact of not including them, which I don't think many people would really consider, giving all the other rights they have. So your stance is healthcare for all, as long as you are here legally? And if not, then no soup for you?

There are more illegals getting free healthcare than people with insurance or paying in? Who knew.

Double post