Obamacare is a mess

EdsonNascimento

So, the Feds can't pay for the money Obama promised in a law nobody read and now it's being blamed on a responsible Congress who refuse to fill the hole left by the colossal (purposeful) miscalculation by the prior regime? Crazy. As much as it hurts the insurance industry, I hope Congress holds fast and ignores ignorant people who don't understand that blame lies at the feet of those that put yet another untenable entitlement program in place without having the proper funding in place. Without the insurance companies payment, this scheme could not work and those smarter than the prior President knew that (though that's unfair. He's smart enough. He got it and also understood this would happen. That's why the timing of the main components going into place and when the bill came due was a time bomb set of whoever followed him).

And before you say single payer - this is effectively single payer. That's the problem.

If you understand what Obama did, you would be for its repeal too. It's easy to give money away. Especially someone else's.

Go Beavers

What do you think of trump's plan?

dignin

ACA is not a single payer system.

ledvedderman

It's such a mess it takes over seven years and counting to think of a way to replace it.

Halifax2TheMax

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

rssesq

have a "cadillac" plan with anthem bc/bs, before ACA $395, now $690
Appreciate it bro.

EdsonNascimento

Go Beavers said:

What do you think of trump's plan?

You mean access to HSAs and pushing Medicare Advantage and mandated managed care for Medicaid? More the overall Republican plan, but in terms of bending the cost curve, it's better, and is much more affordable than what was shoved down our collective gullets without a review. Also, I'm fine with states keeping their expanded Medicaid definitions if they so choose, but returning the federal subsidies back to pre-ACA.

Also, fully agree with elimination of ACOs as they have been a complete boondoggle. That's not to say there haven't been a handful of successful ones, but on balance they've cost the system far more than they've saved. The fact is if all docs acted in their patients best interest like the successful ACOs and HMOs have, we wouldn't need all this forced systemic hysteria. Of course, that requires more clinical driven decisions than what goes on in most parts. And before you say hmos are the ones that don't do that, think again. There are problem ones no doubt. But there are far more providers that are not optimizing patient outcomes that are resulting in avoidable, preventable exacerbation that careful patient tracking and care could remedy. If we could somehow replicate the many good providers, we would be winning. However, inidvidual providers are not in position for many reasons to do so.

Sorry. I could go on, but there are patient based solutions that really would bend the cost curve which after all is what Obama promised. Funny, none of the folks with their hands out remember that teeny, tiny failure.

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

EdsonNascimento

dignin said:

ACA is not a single payer system.

Well, not by the letter, but in reality all the "success" you hear is based on expanded Medicaid and subsidies. Where does all that money come from? A single payer (well, not really, it comes from all of us, but you get the idea). I don't mind making an inordinate contribution, but I want it to be something that actually does its stated purpose - bend the cost curve while not impacting people's previously existing coverage.

For example, when Bush put in Part D drug coverage into Medicare, he tried to balance overage and affordability. Was still extremely expensive, but at least he tried by providing a creative coverage solution. As was expected, the Dems then filled in the holes and yowzers. How expensive now? There needs to be prudence.

I don't think many don't agree with providing coverage. But let's be reasonable and require some checks and responsibility. Doesn't that seem a reasonable ask?

EdsonNascimento

ledvedderman said:

It's such a mess it takes over seven years and counting to think of a way to replace it.

Because to undo a massive entitlement program is precarious and Obama and Pelosi did that on purpose including the timing of rolling out key parts of the law nobody read. Honestly, they should just repeal it and reset. Because its unrecoverable. There are good ideas within it, but those are for the most part inseparable, so oh well. There are a few that can be easily added, but overall it is tied to the enormous expansive of Medicaid (including exchange subsidies in this definition, as that's what that is).

Unfortunately, that's impossible to do. But good job. Trillions of dollars spent not doing what was the stated intention - bending the cost curve. Everyone remembers the hand out. Nobody remembers the stated intention (not that anyone was fooled for one second on that).

That being said, other than direct expansion the Medicaid, they can simply let the market die its own death. So, the politically savvy thing is to postpone any fix for 2 years as the customers will join the screaming for a new way. Though, the blame will be wrongly placed at that point because most people are under educated on the facts of Obamacare. If it had been repealed 3 years ago, it would have been effective bc many of the meaningful parts hadn't been launched yet. But, obviously that was impossible as the 726 repeal votes proved.

ledvedderman

We are all aware that Trump originally was for single payer, right? And that his plan, in his own words, "everyone will be covered".
If he makes that happen, I'll give him due credit.

EdsonNascimento

ledvedderman said:

We are all aware that Trump originally was for single payer, right? And that his plan, in his own words, "everyone will be covered".
If he makes that happen, I'll give him due credit.

Don't want single payer. That would be the dumbest thing ever. Right now employers subsidies a sizable part of the healthcare system (including covering higher provider fees to compensate for fixed lower fee schedules for Medicare and Medicaid). Single payer would be a disaster for providers. Why would we turn away a willing participant in funding a program as employers are in having to compete for employees? Instead, Obamacare thought narrowly as you are and hindered that and actually got employers to get out.

This is another smart move Bush made in implementing Part D. He provided an incentive for employers to continue covering retirees and helping to finance the program. Of course Pelosi and her band of idiots slowly eroded that (though not completely) bc it was "helping the rich." Of course they ignored the fact that it was helping to fund the overall structure of a new benefit for Seniors.

It is amazing to me how little people know and understand about the financing of our healthcare system. People should make the effort to learn, and they'll see who's really taking measured approaches vs just spending money for sound bites. Giving shit away is easy when it's someone else's money.

Halifax2TheMax

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Halifax2TheMax

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.

Halifax2TheMax

And I didn't give up anything to maintain my union benefits, personally.

Halifax2TheMax

Strength in numbers. The walmart approach to purchasing. But you're okay with Walmart?

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

And I didn't give up anything to maintain my union benefits, personally.

So you think you got health benefits without trade offs elsewhere? Well, that's good. Then you got everything you think you deserved. Which is a great way to end a negotiation.

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.

We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

Strength in numbers. The walmart approach to purchasing. But you're okay with Walmart?

Do I agree with everything Walmart does? I'm sure not, but I honestly haven't study that micro economy that much. But does Walmart provide a valuable service for consumers and employees? Not saying it's perfect. Just asking if Walmart did not provide the prices and wide variety of products it does would it's consumers be better or worse off? And does that enable more or less employment?

oftenreading

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.

We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?

It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

And the US has universal health care? By what measure?

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
I agree with you once again often
EdsonNascimento up here we all agree that no matter what if you need healthcare you will receive the best no matter your situation.
We are all human.

oftenreading

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^
I agree with you once again often
EdsonNascimento up here we all agree that no matter what if you need healthcare you will receive the best no matter your situation.
We are all human.

There's a run on snow shovels in Hell right now.

oftenreading

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.

We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?

The US has universal health care - if Orwell defines the term.

Spiritual_Chaos

You should just pay for you're healthcare through taxes like normal countries. And move away from this love of privatizing everything.

PJPOWER

Spiritual_Chaos said:

You should just pay for you're healthcare through taxes like normal countries. And move away from this love of privatizing everything.

What about people that refuse to work? I'm not talking about those that have some disability, but those that just are not willing? Or those that do not pay taxes? Should they get the same standard of healthcare as someone that busts their ass 60 hrs a week and pays 30-50% of their wages in taxes to fund this universal healthcare? I'm fine with it as long as there are still certain standards. If, by free will, you do not contribute to society in any way, then society should not be obligated to contribute to your health and wellbeing, right? Essentially if some adult fat ass chain smoker sits around all day eating cheetos and playing video games instead of seeking employment...they are effectively opting out of insured healthcare.

Godfather.

what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

benjs

Godfather. said:

what ever happened to earning what you have ? this country has been carrying freeloaders for waaayyyy to long now, watch them scatter like rats when it's time to support themselves.
just in case....I'm not talking about disabled people, although there are many who play the system as disabled.

Well, first you'd have to speak to opportunity. I was fortunate enough to be born into a middle class life; I work for my family's business, and have a great opportunity to prove myself and grow here - meaning my opportunity ceiling is quite high.

If I wasn't born this way, if my family couldn't afford a quality education for me, my public school system wasn't able to assist me to excel, my family couldn't assist me in supporting my own ventures - my opportunity ceiling would be quite low. What you call "freeloaders" might legitimately be people at their opportunity ceilings: they're unemployable because they lack the skills because they couldn't afford the education to get them in the door to an environment which offered growth. They might also just be practical enough to see that the jobs that their opportunity ceilings afford them would generate less money than the welfare they consume - so which route is a person to take: hard work for nominal pay, or no work for slightly better pay?

These are not hypothetical questions, they are very real situations for many, many people. If you want to negate this question over who pays for health care - raise the opportunity ceiling for America's poorest (by education and by wealth), so that they can start to fend for themselves. Ensuring a quality education for all is a good start to combat the perception of perpetual destitution, which I'd guess many of these "freeloaders" you describe feel day to day - this is arguably the most critical tool to growth and empowerment.

mace1229

rssesq said:

have a "cadillac" plan with anthem bc/bs, before ACA $395, now $690
Appreciate it bro.

Those are exactly my thoughts. 8 years ago I was paying a fraction of what I pay now for healthcare. And what I get now is worse.
I don't know how anyone can think it is a good idea when they advertise that they need to get healthy people to sign up and overpay s they can charge less for unhealthy people. Yes, it is good for people with existing conditions who are not in a group plan with their employment, but to me that doesn't justify it. Who would ever say overcharge good drivers so those terrible drivers can have more affordable auto insurance?
I was doing taxes this weekend and it was something close to 30% of my would be take-home pay went to benefits, it is insane! We are an average family, with just about average nationwide income, and to have 30% of my pay taken away when several years ago it would have been a fraction of that is unacceptable to me. And that is just my contribution, my employer pays about 60% of the benefits, which in reality is just taken out of my pay before I ever see it.
Do the math and it doesn't even make sense to have insurance anymore, but we have to. What I mean by that is you would think, like in a car accident, a major expense you would be happy to be covered and feel it was worth it for that year. Nope, not with health insurance. We had a baby last year, and with 3 nights in the hospital and delivery bills and all the other expenses involved we essentially broke even for that month-meaning our hospital bills had we not been insured is what our premiums for that month were (actually, to be fair, it would have taken 2 months of premiums to cover that cost). And that's freaking having a baby and staying 3 nights in the hospital, the average family will only have a handful of expenses in their lifetime that are more than that. SO every month that we do not have overnight hospital visits we are not even coming close to making it worth while. That to me is absurd, a situation like that should be a moment of "I'm sure glad we have insurance, otherwise how else could we afford this?" but it is far from that! If you got into a car accident and your insurance paid out your car for $3000, but your month premiums were $1500, wouldn't that be a waste? You could total your car every other month and still break even by not having insurance.
I personally know several healthy people who chose to not have insurance because their premiums would be so high (to make up for the rest) that they'd rather pay cash for all doctor visits and pay the tax penalty. And aside from some cancer diagnosis that requires years of treatment, they will have made the right choice financially.
I just cant justify the cost of coverage. And the increase is not inflation, inflation has not tripled in 8 years, I can still buy a donut for $0.59 at Safeway,
And the coverage is worse. My coverage used to include mental health, so we could see a psychiatrist. Not covered anymore, if my wife wants to see her psychiatrists she saw 8 years ago, its going to cost us $500/month. Aren't most of the mass shootings mental health issues? Shouldn't we be worried about that too? But since its not required now, its not covered.

ElderlyWomanOH

"The RNC’s “fact check” goes on to list more figures from the KFF survey, including the accurate statistic that the average premium for single coverage through employers has gone up 28 percent “under Obama” That’s right again, but much lower than the growth of individual premiums during Bush’s first six years. That increase was 72 percent." http://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/slower-premium-growth-under-obama/

Premiums have consistently risen for many years and actual benefits have declined. This is true. Where is the money going? Insurance companies.

And yet the U.S. is #42 in life expectancy. Canada, with healthcare for all, is #19.

EdsonNascimento

oftenreading said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

It's a mess because republicans have sabotaged it. From day one. They even opposed pieces that they previously supported. All to "see this president fail." And they still don't have a solution other than, "let the market decide." Which isn't a solution.

How,did they sabotage it? By not writing a blank check? Good for them.

Republicans in congress, rather than work with Obama, fought it tooth and nail, the idea of universal care. Rather than be part of the process, they screamed death panels and opposed compromise they previously supported. Then republican states barred the expansion of Medicare as an alternative option. And still they have no plan. None.

Prior to Obamacare, my premiums and copays increased by double digit %'s year after year after year. The only times they didn't is when I was a union member and collectively we spoke up and since passage, my premiums increased in single % digits and have stayed flat for the past two years. But then again, I work in a state that embraced romneycare from day one and it's what?, only been a decade? And yes, I get excellent care.

So, what's Trump's solution? Here's a clue, he doesn't have one.

Well, if you look at HealthyIndiana you start to get an idea. Ryan has put forth some ideas too. It's not necessarily trumps job to come up with a solution. Oh for the days when congress was the legislature.

Is your plan on the exchanges?

I've done union employee benefits. You guys were giving up other stuff to maintain those things, it's a choice, which is fine. You made that collectively. Wish we had that for Obamacare.

And not disagreeing with the rhetoric you sited, but it's just that rhetoric. Cut through that. How were the republicans given a chance? Obama and Pelosi rammed a 2,000 page bill through without allowing anyone to read it. Nice revisionist history in your part.

Because during negotiations the repubs failed to offer alternatives, support or anything that would result in a final product or victory for Obama. Even after he agreed to address their concerns. They failed. Because all they were concerned about was seeing him fail.

Why is it that all of our allies have universal health care? Is it really that bad of a concept? It is the 21st century afterall.

We do have universal health care. I guess it's how you define that. When other countries have our diversity, they can start comparing problems. Did you know there's a small area in Queens NY that has more ethnicities than anywhere in the world? Does Canada have as many ethnicities as Queens NY in its entire country?

It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, you still deserve health care. That's a ridiculous non sequitur.

And the US has universal health care? By what measure?

I think you missed the point. It wasn't about the ethnicities but the diversity. Sure, I could have picked a better word.

But, feel free to interpret however you want. The point is, we have far more diversity and all that means both in terms of socioeconomic status, health issues, genetics and everything else that goes into both healthcare considerations and financing. So, I do apologize if my choice of words threw you off.