Obamacare is a mess

mace1229 · February 2017

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.

yes, and the 10-12 or so doctor visits we had in those 9 months are not going to total the other 10k you are quoting. A cash, out of pocket doctor visit will usually run $100-$200. I know, I've been there and have friends who are there right now. Not every doctor does not but a lot do. Schedule ahead, tell them you are uninsured, or will be paying out of pocket but want to be seen. They give you the cash price, which is a fraction of what they bill insurance. But if you walk in, pretend you have insurance and just forgot your card, they'll send you a bill for $800 and tell you to forward it to your insurance.
Not to mention those uninsured paying out of pocket probably wont be going 10-12 times, we don't really need biweekly ultrasounds in the third trimester. I survived without my mom getting a single one.

Go Beavers · February 2017

EdsonNascimento said:

Go Beavers said:

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.
I'm guessing he has a good idea what he paid out of pocket.
He only talks about the hospital, so keep guessing.

My bad. Sis paid 4-5k

Halifax2TheMax · February 2017

Don't forget wall street's role in this. They monetized healthcare and bundled it into a profit making investment, to be traded, bought and sold, encouraging mergers and acquisitions and consolidation. It went from non-profit, service focused to for profit business, return on investment focused.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.

I've asked this on the boards before and never really got a straight answer.
When you go to the hospital to deliver and stay let's say 3days, how much is the bill you'll receive?

Go Beavers · February 2017

See, the Canadians have no idea what they're missing out on!

mace1229 · February 2017

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.
I've asked this on the boards before and never really got a straight answer.
When you go to the hospital to deliver and stay let's say 3days, how much is the bill you'll receive?

We had a baby 6 months ago, mom stayed 3 nights and baby stayed 4, which is longer than typical but nothing major.
The bill we got had the "original amount" which totaled about 9 or 10k or so, then it had the "negotiated fee" which is the amount they want you to think you're saving by having your insurance, and that was about half that. Then they say what portion of the negotiated fee they cover and what portion you still owe, which for us we owed about $800.
And if you don't have insurance and notify them ahead of time, most places have a cash price that is equal to or less than the "negotiated fee" anyway. But if you just show up and say send me the bill, more than likely you'll get that full bill until you call and complain and they reduce it.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.
I've asked this on the boards before and never really got a straight answer.
When you go to the hospital to deliver and stay let's say 3days, how much is the bill you'll receive?

We had a baby 6 months ago, mom stayed 3 nights and baby stayed 4, which is longer than typical but nothing major.
The bill we got had the "original amount" which totaled about 9 or 10k or so, then it had the "negotiated fee" which is the amount they want you to think you're saving by having your insurance, and that was about half that. Then they say what portion of the negotiated fee they cover and what portion you still owe, which for us we owed about $800.
And if you don't have insurance and notify them ahead of time, most places have a cash price that is equal to or less than the "negotiated fee" anyway. But if you just show up and say send me the bill, more than likely you'll get that full bill until you call and complain and they reduce it.

Thank you very much for a real answer.
There is a lot of misinformation about American healthcare costs, overnight stays, going in for a broken leg etc.
I always thought in the back of my mind either Americans are all millionaires (which I know not to be true) or they just suck it up and pay it off for the rest of their lives.
$800 is reasonable, I'm not saying that isn't a lot of money. Up here we don't get a bill no matter how long the stay or whatever the reason for the visit. That's not to say we don't pay for that privilege with our taxes though.

mace1229 · February 2017

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

mace1229 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Your statistics are way off. While even I tried to make an argument based on dread disease, to think that's the only thing eating up the healthcare dollar is silly. 1 hospital stay is $10K. A pregnancy is $15K for the mom assuming no complications. It's easy to rack up half of the base price you're talking about without even considering maintenance situations like Diabetes, etc.

But, forget all that. If your fuzzy math were right on the total cost of healthcare, there would be no debate. It would all be easily coverable.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. We did just have a baby 6 months ago, and we saw all the bills before they were paid. And there were some minor complications, mom stayed 3 nights and the baby stayed 4. Total paid to the hospital was less than 6k. Now maybe your numbers are the jacked up rates they present insurance, because on our bill it has a "regular fee" and a "negotiated fee" Yeah, the "regular fee" was listed at like 20k or something ridiculous, but when looking at what the hospital was actually paid through our copay and insurance, the "negotiated fee" was less than 6k. And people without insurance don't get billed that ridiculous first amount, that is just what they send insurance hoping the pay it, and what insurance wants you to see so you think you have these great savings through them. That was part of my point as well, going through the insurance jacks the rates way up. My sister in law was not on health insurance when she had 3 of her 4 kids, paid cash for all of them. And it was in the 4-5k range she ended up paying in cash. If you tell a doctor or hospital that you are uninsured and want the cash price, it is a fraction of what they bill insurance. At least that was the case before having insurance became law.
There is more to having a baby than the hospital stay. That's why your fuzzy math is so far off.
I've asked this on the boards before and never really got a straight answer.
When you go to the hospital to deliver and stay let's say 3days, how much is the bill you'll receive?

We had a baby 6 months ago, mom stayed 3 nights and baby stayed 4, which is longer than typical but nothing major.
The bill we got had the "original amount" which totaled about 9 or 10k or so, then it had the "negotiated fee" which is the amount they want you to think you're saving by having your insurance, and that was about half that. Then they say what portion of the negotiated fee they cover and what portion you still owe, which for us we owed about $800.
And if you don't have insurance and notify them ahead of time, most places have a cash price that is equal to or less than the "negotiated fee" anyway. But if you just show up and say send me the bill, more than likely you'll get that full bill until you call and complain and they reduce it.
Thank you very much for a real answer.
There is a lot of misinformation about American healthcare costs, overnight stays, going in for a broken leg etc.
I always thought in the back of my mind either Americans are all millionaires (which I know not to be true) or they just suck it up and pay it off for the rest of their lives.
$800 is reasonable, I'm not saying that isn't a lot of money. Up here we don't get a bill no matter how long the stay or whatever the reason for the visit. That's not to say we don't pay for that privilege with our taxes though.

Yes, but that $800 is paid on top of $1600/month of premiums paid by my employer and myself. I just reminder looking at what the hospital was actually paid and thinking it was about 2.5 months of premiums. Another month of premiums would cover the prenatal care. So in 3.5 months of premiums has paid in full my most expensive medical expense to date, most years my medical expenses could be covered in less than a 1 month premium payment. Where does all that money go? Insurer's pocket.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

What do people think about this article?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-15/aetna-ceo-says-obamacare-in-a-death-spiral-with-sick-customers

mace1229 · February 2017

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

The flip side is I hear complaints about the taxes up there to cover it. What is the tax?

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

The flip side is I hear complaints about the taxes up there to cover it. What is the tax?

W/ out getting into all the details you are one step from wiki or google https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada
Canada is the only country with a universal healthcare system that does not include coverage of prescription medication

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2017

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

The flip side is I hear complaints about the taxes up there to cover it. What is the tax?

Really?

My circle of friends and I rarely bitch about taxes. We feel- despite cases of misuse every now and then- that we get good value from paying them.

I could look at my gross wage and bitch about not having that gross wage, but then I'd be forgetting about all the services I receive for that 40% income tax.

oftenreading · February 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

The flip side is I hear complaints about the taxes up there to cover it. What is the tax?
Really?

My circle of friends and I rarely bitch about taxes. We feel- despite cases of misuse every now and then- that we get good value from paying them.

I could look at my gross wage and bitch about not having that gross wage, but then I'd be forgetting about all the services I receive for that 40% income tax.

My highly paid dentist next door neighbour bitches incessantly about taxes. Somehow he seems to forget about the excellent public schools both his kids are in, the Olympic class public swimming pool that both of them train at (with dreams of Olympic medals) for low cost, the nicely kept municipality full of green space, hiking trails, and nicely paved roads, the good police service they got last year when they were fraud victims.......... yeah, he's hard done by, especially considering how many personal expenses he runs through as "business expenses".

I don't bitch about my taxes.

Go Beavers · February 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
^^^
I haven't been following your story and didn't know about the $1600/m premium.
So it is as bad as what most think - Americans pay through the nose for healthcare.
That's not right.

The flip side is I hear complaints about the taxes up there to cover it. What is the tax?
Really?

My circle of friends and I rarely bitch about taxes. We feel- despite cases of misuse every now and then- that we get good value from paying them.

I could look at my gross wage and bitch about not having that gross wage, but then I'd be forgetting about all the services I receive for that 40% income tax.

I think this is a big difference in the argument. Other countries acknowledge and/or have awareness of what they're getting for their tax dollars. A lot of Americans want to complain about taxes without recognizing where taxes go. The notion a lot have that private industry can always do better in nearly every situation is also a factor.

mace1229 · February 2017

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What do people think about this article?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-15/aetna-ceo-says-obamacare-in-a-death-spiral-with-sick-customers

I completely agree with that. I personally know several people in their 20s or 30s who are healthy and chose to not have insurance because it is too expensive, and is still cheaper to pay the penalty. Especially in places like LA where they are struggling to find work, stuck with a temp job and paying rent of $1500/month but don't qualify for subsidized insurance because they make 40k a year, but in LA that doesn't go very far. . If you're healthy, you can afford it. And the system is designed to overcharge healthy people, so when they drop out it becomes underfunded.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2017

mace1229 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What do people think about this article?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-15/aetna-ceo-says-obamacare-in-a-death-spiral-with-sick-customers
I completely agree with that. I personally know several people in their 20s or 30s who are healthy and chose to not have insurance because it is too expensive, and is still cheaper to pay the penalty. Especially in places like LA where they are struggling to find work, stuck with a temp job and paying rent of $1500/month but don't qualify for subsidized insurance because they make 40k a year, but in LA that doesn't go very far. . If you're healthy, you can afford it. And the system is designed to overcharge healthy people, so when they drop out it becomes underfunded.

I have to be honest.
I didn't want to put President Trump into this conversation in anyway but I have to disclaim that the article was pulled from his twitter page

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/831979921555742732

catefrances · February 2017

why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

mace1229 · February 2017

catefrances said:
why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.

Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

HughFreakingDillon · February 2017

mace1229 said:

catefrances said:
why cant america get health care right??? seriously its not that difficult to provide all your people with healthcare.. other nations do it.
Other nations don't have the immigration problem we have. With that many people here illegally, getting paid illegally and avoiding taxes and many of them sending their money outside of the country to families, it becomes more difficult to provide care to everyone.
How quickly would Trump, or anyone else, be called a racist if they required citizenship to get healthcare, that these other countries do you are talking about?
I cant get coverage in Canada, but you know riots, literally riots and violence, would break out if we had a system that provided care to citizens and not illegals.

I can't get any healthcare without presenting my manitoba health card. you have to be a citizen, as far as I know, to get it. I don't know what they'd do if I was dying, but all I know is I have to present that card every single time. even when I'm checking in for an appointment with my GP.

Obamacare is a mess

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