A "protester" shot another "protester"... can we please stop calling them "Protesters"?

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

I recognize that white skinned people have a long history of oppression of people with black skin. That being said, I think that in today's day and age, it is to a lesser degree than at any time throughout American history.
My problem with this conversation is that it almost seems as though some are using "white privilege" as a justification or a way to excuse violent protests. People are responsible for their own actions. Looting and arson during these riots cannot be blamed on white privileges, they are criminal acts perpetrated by opportunistic criminals and a mob mentality.

I haven't seen anything of the sort.

You're not reading between the lines. The fact that this thread about the illegitimacy of the riots has derailed into a conversation about white privilege says it all.
To get back on topic- I posted this in another thread, but I feel it fits here as well.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=51f_1474633969

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

I recognize that white skinned people have a long history of oppression of people with black skin. That being said, I think that in today's day and age, it is to a lesser degree than at any time throughout American history.
My problem with this conversation is that it almost seems as though some are using "white privilege" as a justification or a way to excuse violent protests. People are responsible for their own actions. Looting and arson during these riots cannot be blamed on white privileges, they are criminal acts perpetrated by opportunistic criminals and a mob mentality.

I haven't seen anything of the sort.

You're not reading between the lines. The fact that this thread about the illegitimacy of the riots has derailed into a conversation about white privilege says it all.
To get back on topic- I posted this in another thread, but I feel it fits here as well.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=51f_1474633969

You are reading far too much between the lines. Threads devolve in this way all the time and it's not some statement about our subconscious thoughts, it is just an indicator that many of us (certainly me!) will pursue an argument endlessly.
This debate is taking place across several threads, and I would bet many are (like myself) simply tracking the debate at large without much concern for the original intent of the threads.

I haven't seen any defense of the deplorable activities happening in SC, and reading between the lines is a risky practice that allows far too great an opportunity to project.

You may be right, but it is seeming like turning every thread into a white privilege conversation is an apologetic "wag the dog" strategy of sorts. Maybe it has just come across that way to me personally.

For my part, and I think dignin and beaverguy are aligned wit me here, I am doggedly continuing the white privilege discussion because the rebuttals are outrageous (and always angry) and it is shocking that people can be so obtuse as to fail to recognize that black people have had, and still continue to have (though diminishing) disadvantages in America.

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

mcgruff10 said:

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

So white privelage is exactly what? Having successful parents to help you along the way?

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

Go back and read your post about the 'people you've worked with' and how helpless they became as a victim of circumstances.

I'm not making anything up. Keep spewing away.

I know what I wrote, and helpless was something I didn't say. I was referring to the concept of responsibility and that it becomes very ambiguous when you start to really dig into it. That's nothing about excuses and is even more in depth about an individuals responsibility.

mcgruff10 said:

Go Beavers said:

mcgruff10 said:

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

So white privelage is exactly what? Having successful parents to help you along the way?

White privilege would play a role in someone's parents success.

It s not what you know but rather who you know. I m thinking white privilege is an urban legend at this point.

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

Go back and read your post about the 'people you've worked with' and how helpless they became as a victim of circumstances.

I'm not making anything up. Keep spewing away.

I know what I wrote, and helpless was something I didn't say. I was referring to the concept of responsibility and that it becomes very ambiguous when you start to really dig into it. That's nothing about excuses and is even more in depth about an individuals responsibility.

Responsibility becomes ambiguous when you start to really dig into it.

Hmmm.

You're going to have to forgive me for thinking this sounds like some good excuse making.

It can be hard to put into words and in these kind of formats, terms and definitions can get sideways. Based on the thread, I can probably safely say when you say responsibility, you're meaning a person improving their situation with regard to economic status (contributing rather than taking away). Let's call it upward movement. Many factors play into this movement. The individual's attitude, intelligence, skills, ability, motivation, education, emotional state, etc. American culture leans heavily and emphasizes this aspect of individuality. (remember, this is a cultural influence, not a human influence). There's also many external factors that come into play for a person's movement: access to job opportunities, norms set by peers, quality of education, safety in their community, family relationships, community support, peer relationships, access to resources that stimulate creativity, activity and connection with others.etc... Of course, a lot of these external things are tied to the economic status of the local community. So, when you bring it back to an individual going through upward movement, they navigate all of these hurdles and also may (or may not) access all of these resources external to them. They have their individual parts, and they integrate them with the external. The external influence should never be minimized and is huge with people's success, which tends to run counter with American individualism.
(Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I've had a few beers at this point)
What I'm saying is that compassion and understanding for an individual is an infinite resource. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given consequences for breaking the law, but my take is that their decision process, and all the elements that played into that process, needs to be understood. When you start to look at someone's being, where before they were discarded, this notion of responsibility turns grey very quickly.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

If there's evidence that disproves white privilege, then bring it up for discussion.

I've never denied it exists.

I've also pointed out the failings of individuals within the black community who have failed to exercise strong values and have made very poor decisions (acknowledging at the same time the challenges they face when doing so).

You have most certainly trumpeted the white privilege issue (opportunistic as you have been yourself within it no less)... yet made excuses for these 'failings' I speak of as if those people are simply incapable of exercising decency or responsibility.

When have we made excuses? Please stop making shit up.

No kidding. Who was making excuses? And I'm also well aware of my own white privilege, which I've incorporated into my position.

Go back and read your post about the 'people you've worked with' and how helpless they became as a victim of circumstances.

I'm not making anything up. Keep spewing away.

I know what I wrote, and helpless was something I didn't say. I was referring to the concept of responsibility and that it becomes very ambiguous when you start to really dig into it. That's nothing about excuses and is even more in depth about an individuals responsibility.

Responsibility becomes ambiguous when you start to really dig into it.

Hmmm.

You're going to have to forgive me for thinking this sounds like some good excuse making.

It can be hard to put into words and in these kind of formats, terms and definitions can get sideways. Based on the thread, I can probably safely say when you say responsibility, you're meaning a person improving their situation with regard to economic status (contributing rather than taking away). Let's call it upward movement. Many factors play into this movement. The individual's attitude, intelligence, skills, ability, motivation, education, emotional state, etc. American culture leans heavily and emphasizes this aspect of individuality. (remember, this is a cultural influence, not a human influence). There's also many external factors that come into play for a person's movement: access to job opportunities, norms set by peers, quality of education, safety in their community, family relationships, community support, peer relationships, access to resources that stimulate creativity, activity and connection with others.etc... Of course, a lot of these external things are tied to the economic status of the local community. So, when you bring it back to an individual going through upward movement, they navigate all of these hurdles and also may (or may not) access all of these resources external to them. They have their individual parts, and they integrate them with the external. The external influence should never be minimized and is huge with people's success, which tends to run counter with American individualism.
(Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I've had a few beers at this point)
What I'm saying is that compassion and understanding for an individual is an infinite resource. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given consequences for breaking the law, but my take is that their decision process, and all the elements that played into that process, needs to be understood. When you start to look at someone's being, where before they were discarded, this notion of responsibility turns grey very quickly.

A good post, but I'm afraid we aren't on the same page with regards to what I meant by responsibility.

I don't mean upward mobility- remember I'm one of the people stating that there is little hope for inner city youth. By speaking to personal or social responsibility, I basically mean to say be a decent human being: don't hurt other people and stay within the law.

Again, I understand why some resort to crime, but it's not an excuse as difficult as their personal situation might be.