Does anybody agree with me and Ed on this?

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

JH6056 said:

OnWis97 said:

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

Doesn't change it for me...any focus on the size brings it in the wrong direction.

That said, he's human and I am not suggesting that it's unforgivable; even the most staunch male feminists have less-than-feminist thoughts. It was just unfortunate; I don't think it's the direction he really wanted to go...Kinda like a Wrigley when it appeared he immediately regretted bringing up Bartman...he probably pretty quickly realized that that's not the way he should be talking about it. But I will go to my grave that ripping her for the size implies that it's not quite as bad if a larger-breasted woman does the same thing. That's probably not quite what he meant...he probably more or less just took the "let's caller her out and humilate her" thing one step in the wrong direction.

I wasn't going to say this but since you raised the comparison on size and all I'm just going to say it: her boobs weren't that small. You wil go to your grave believing he was implying bigger-boobed women wouldn't have been so bad; I absolutely believe and will go to my grave believing that actually, they WERE NOT that small and his point was much more about "You aren't as impressive as you think you are" and shaming them for being tiny when actually they weren't tiny. It was about shaming her - which I TOTALLY understand the discomfort with (it made me uncomfortable), but it really was not a commentary on her actual size from my view (I was there, very close to the front, and saw this all go down).

I totally understand why you see it as you do, and since most people hearing the tape or watching the video will not actually see the woman herself, I didn't say this. And I appreciate that you said he probably didn't actually mean that and that he probably took his "call her out and humiliate her" a few steps in a wrong direction. But that is my impression.

It's like taking someone who's got a perfectly normal/healthy/average size ___________ (whatever, fill in the blank) but who is showing it off like it's the best in the world and acting an ass about it, and wanting to take them down 10 notches while also trying to dissuade anyone else who thinks it's a way to get attention from trying it. It may not at all be that the person's whatever is tiny or truly unimpressive, it's more about the embarrassment and trying to keep them from doing it again. NOT saying that justifies this approach (I still call the whole incident cringe-worthy) but I absolutely do NOT feel it was Ed showing unconscious sizism (size-ism?) or hypocrisy. I think his desire to kill and destroy this trend just made his other judgement go out the window.

Going back to the OP who is a therapist, Ed is a very good, intuitive judge of character and human interaction. I think he went to "What will make this young woman never ever EVER want to do this again..." and that's what came out of his mouth. Doesn't justify it, but also doesn't condemn him as a closet sexist.

Abe Froman said:

Can you imagine the things we all might have said in front of large crowds in our twenties?? With the spotlight on every fucking move you made?? Shit, Im not sure anyone would like me...

JH6056 said:

OnWis97 said:

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

Doesn't change it for me...any focus on the size brings it in the wrong direction.

That said, he's human and I am not suggesting that it's unforgivable; even the most staunch male feminists have less-than-feminist thoughts. It was just unfortunate; I don't think it's the direction he really wanted to go...Kinda like a Wrigley when it appeared he immediately regretted bringing up Bartman...he probably pretty quickly realized that that's not the way he should be talking about it. But I will go to my grave that ripping her for the size implies that it's not quite as bad if a larger-breasted woman does the same thing. That's probably not quite what he meant...he probably more or less just took the "let's caller her out and humilate her" thing one step in the wrong direction.

I wasn't going to say this but since you raised the comparison on size and all I'm just going to say it: her boobs weren't that small. You wil go to your grave believing he was implying bigger-boobed women wouldn't have been so bad; I absolutely believe and will go to my grave believing that actually, they WERE NOT that small and his point was much more about "You aren't as impressive as you think you are" and shaming them for being tiny when actually they weren't tiny. It was about shaming her - which I TOTALLY understand the discomfort with (it made me uncomfortable), but it really was not a commentary on her actual size from my view (I was there, very close to the front, and saw this all go down).

I totally understand why you see it as you do, and since most people hearing the tape or watching the video will not actually see the woman herself, I didn't say this. And I appreciate that you said he probably didn't actually mean that and that he probably took his "call her out and humiliate her" a few steps in a wrong direction. But that is my impression.

It's like taking someone who's got a perfectly normal/healthy/average size ___________ (whatever, fill in the blank) but who is showing it off like it's the best in the world and acting an ass about it, and wanting to take them down 10 notches while also trying to dissuade anyone else who thinks it's a way to get attention from trying it. It may not at all be that the person's whatever is tiny or truly unimpressive, it's more about the embarrassment and trying to keep them from doing it again. NOT saying that justifies this approach (I still call the whole incident cringe-worthy) but I absolutely do NOT feel it was Ed showing unconscious sizism (size-ism?) or hypocrisy. I think his desire to kill and destroy this trend just made his other judgement go out the window.

Going back to the OP who is a therapist, Ed is a very good, intuitive judge of character and human interaction. I think he went to "What will make this young woman never ever EVER want to do this again..." and that's what came out of his mouth. Doesn't justify it, but also doesn't condemn him as a closet sexist.

killmoretrout said:

JH6056 said:

OnWis97 said:

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

Doesn't change it for me...any focus on the size brings it in the wrong direction.

That said, he's human and I am not suggesting that it's unforgivable; even the most staunch male feminists have less-than-feminist thoughts. It was just unfortunate; I don't think it's the direction he really wanted to go...Kinda like a Wrigley when it appeared he immediately regretted bringing up Bartman...he probably pretty quickly realized that that's not the way he should be talking about it. But I will go to my grave that ripping her for the size implies that it's not quite as bad if a larger-breasted woman does the same thing. That's probably not quite what he meant...he probably more or less just took the "let's caller her out and humilate her" thing one step in the wrong direction.

I wasn't going to say this but since you raised the comparison on size and all I'm just going to say it: her boobs weren't that small. You wil go to your grave believing he was implying bigger-boobed women wouldn't have been so bad; I absolutely believe and will go to my grave believing that actually, they WERE NOT that small and his point was much more about "You aren't as impressive as you think you are" and shaming them for being tiny when actually they weren't tiny. It was about shaming her - which I TOTALLY understand the discomfort with (it made me uncomfortable), but it really was not a commentary on her actual size from my view (I was there, very close to the front, and saw this all go down).

I totally understand why you see it as you do, and since most people hearing the tape or watching the video will not actually see the woman herself, I didn't say this. And I appreciate that you said he probably didn't actually mean that and that he probably took his "call her out and humiliate her" a few steps in a wrong direction. But that is my impression.

It's like taking someone who's got a perfectly normal/healthy/average size ___________ (whatever, fill in the blank) but who is showing it off like it's the best in the world and acting an ass about it, and wanting to take them down 10 notches while also trying to dissuade anyone else who thinks it's a way to get attention from trying it. It may not at all be that the person's whatever is tiny or truly unimpressive, it's more about the embarrassment and trying to keep them from doing it again. NOT saying that justifies this approach (I still call the whole incident cringe-worthy) but I absolutely do NOT feel it was Ed showing unconscious sizism (size-ism?) or hypocrisy. I think his desire to kill and destroy this trend just made his other judgement go out the window.

Going back to the OP who is a therapist, Ed is a very good, intuitive judge of character and human interaction. I think he went to "What will make this young woman never ever EVER want to do this again..." and that's what came out of his mouth. Doesn't justify it, but also doesn't condemn him as a closet sexist.

Respectfully, the actual size doesn't really matter. I think everyone here agrees he was trying to let her know she was doing something stupid, but the way it came out sounded clumsy and insulting. It is amazing that a clip from 2003 is readily available to watch after a 10-second internet search. I don't even like seeing old pictures of myself, and shudder to think there were 1000's of videos online of me saying shit I may not even remember thinking, let alone saying. And with that massive volume of material available online, I'd wager the cringe-worthy clips are pretty damn rare, even with all the wine flowing and the cameras rolling. These guys all seem good dudes, they're inspiring activists, and agents for positive change. That I think we all agree on.

And I think that was kinda the point of the OP. Stories like these are not part of the Pearl Jam canon, and as outliers, they're pretty interesting to dissect. Looking at this vid, I don't think any of us could envision this scene going down in 2016, as I think as humans, the dudes have probably all continued to improve and evolve. Good thread, cool topic, sez me.

OnWis97 said:

JH6056 said:

OnWis97 said:

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

Doesn't change it for me...any focus on the size brings it in the wrong direction.

That said, he's human and I am not suggesting that it's unforgivable; even the most staunch male feminists have less-than-feminist thoughts. It was just unfortunate; I don't think it's the direction he really wanted to go...Kinda like a Wrigley when it appeared he immediately regretted bringing up Bartman...he probably pretty quickly realized that that's not the way he should be talking about it. But I will go to my grave that ripping her for the size implies that it's not quite as bad if a larger-breasted woman does the same thing. That's probably not quite what he meant...he probably more or less just took the "let's caller her out and humilate her" thing one step in the wrong direction.

I wasn't going to say this but since you raised the comparison on size and all I'm just going to say it: her boobs weren't that small. You wil go to your grave believing he was implying bigger-boobed women wouldn't have been so bad; I absolutely believe and will go to my grave believing that actually, they WERE NOT that small and his point was much more about "You aren't as impressive as you think you are" and shaming them for being tiny when actually they weren't tiny. It was about shaming her - which I TOTALLY understand the discomfort with (it made me uncomfortable), but it really was not a commentary on her actual size from my view (I was there, very close to the front, and saw this all go down).

I totally understand why you see it as you do, and since most people hearing the tape or watching the video will not actually see the woman herself, I didn't say this. And I appreciate that you said he probably didn't actually mean that and that he probably took his "call her out and humiliate her" a few steps in a wrong direction. But that is my impression.

It's like taking someone who's got a perfectly normal/healthy/average size ___________ (whatever, fill in the blank) but who is showing it off like it's the best in the world and acting an ass about it, and wanting to take them down 10 notches while also trying to dissuade anyone else who thinks it's a way to get attention from trying it. It may not at all be that the person's whatever is tiny or truly unimpressive, it's more about the embarrassment and trying to keep them from doing it again. NOT saying that justifies this approach (I still call the whole incident cringe-worthy) but I absolutely do NOT feel it was Ed showing unconscious sizism (size-ism?) or hypocrisy. I think his desire to kill and destroy this trend just made his other judgement go out the window.

Going back to the OP who is a therapist, Ed is a very good, intuitive judge of character and human interaction. I think he went to "What will make this young woman never ever EVER want to do this again..." and that's what came out of his mouth. Doesn't justify it, but also doesn't condemn him as a closet sexist.

Interesting. I have two totally conflicting reactions: 1) So? It still sends a bad message that size matters and 2) OK, he just wanted to knock someone who thought she was all that down a peg. Either way, he kinda blew it. But either way, the rest of his history renders it beyond forgivable.

ladydocNYC said:

KV4053 said:

I think part of the (very little) backlash you received is due, in part, to mentioning your profession and then proceeding to analyze a celebrity based solely on media exposure (I'm assuming he's not your patient). Why mention your profession? .

Good point. Thanks for saying it, and saying it nicely.

I thought mentioning my profession would give context to where I was coming from and help clarify what I was saying. I guess I also thought it might make what I was saying more interesting to some people. I claim NO special insight into Ed's mind but I do fancy that I have a bit of insight, by virtue of my profession, into the process of overcoming internal struggles. Ed's always been open about his internal struggle to come to terms with some parts of his personal history.

But you're right, it would have been better not to mention it. This isn't the right place for that.

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

JH6056 said:

OnWis97 said:

green_girl said:

JH6056 said:

killmoretrout said:

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

I was at that show. I think in his frantic effort to dissuade that from "becoming a thing" as we say now, he just went ALL THE WAY OFF. It was sexist in many ways, but I also think he didn't want ANYONE to mistake him or the band for people who wanted that to happen at their shows or who would respond to that. Also, to be fair, this was either at the same time or soon after Guns and Roses had made a habit of staring their shows an hour or more late, which led to literally an hour plus of camera crews roaming stadiums and finding women to badger into flashing their boobs. For more than an hour this was 'entertainment" and it tainted a lot of shows around that time. So I also always took his hostility towards this act as a bigger hostility to that whole trend.

Not that that makes the specifics of this any less cringe-worthy, but I think it was about a whole lot more than just "Eww, I'm going ot shame you".

Thanks for the context! I had no idea. (Those camera crews were really predatory, and those DVD commercials were all over late night TV.)
That makes the clip less cringe-worthy. Someone else mentioned that the size comment may have been directed at the woman's too-young-for this-ness. (Of course, we can't see her in the clip.) Maybe that's why he went full "mad dad" on her. (I realize I'm backpedaling, but context makes a lot of difference.)

Doesn't change it for me...any focus on the size brings it in the wrong direction.

That said, he's human and I am not suggesting that it's unforgivable; even the most staunch male feminists have less-than-feminist thoughts. It was just unfortunate; I don't think it's the direction he really wanted to go...Kinda like a Wrigley when it appeared he immediately regretted bringing up Bartman...he probably pretty quickly realized that that's not the way he should be talking about it. But I will go to my grave that ripping her for the size implies that it's not quite as bad if a larger-breasted woman does the same thing. That's probably not quite what he meant...he probably more or less just took the "let's caller her out and humilate her" thing one step in the wrong direction.

I wasn't going to say this but since you raised the comparison on size and all I'm just going to say it: her boobs weren't that small. You wil go to your grave believing he was implying bigger-boobed women wouldn't have been so bad; I absolutely believe and will go to my grave believing that actually, they WERE NOT that small and his point was much more about "You aren't as impressive as you think you are" and shaming them for being tiny when actually they weren't tiny. It was about shaming her - which I TOTALLY understand the discomfort with (it made me uncomfortable), but it really was not a commentary on her actual size from my view (I was there, very close to the front, and saw this all go down).

I totally understand why you see it as you do, and since most people hearing the tape or watching the video will not actually see the woman herself, I didn't say this. And I appreciate that you said he probably didn't actually mean that and that he probably took his "call her out and humiliate her" a few steps in a wrong direction. But that is my impression.

It's like taking someone who's got a perfectly normal/healthy/average size ___________ (whatever, fill in the blank) but who is showing it off like it's the best in the world and acting an ass about it, and wanting to take them down 10 notches while also trying to dissuade anyone else who thinks it's a way to get attention from trying it. It may not at all be that the person's whatever is tiny or truly unimpressive, it's more about the embarrassment and trying to keep them from doing it again. NOT saying that justifies this approach (I still call the whole incident cringe-worthy) but I absolutely do NOT feel it was Ed showing unconscious sizism (size-ism?) or hypocrisy. I think his desire to kill and destroy this trend just made his other judgement go out the window.

Going back to the OP who is a therapist, Ed is a very good, intuitive judge of character and human interaction. I think he went to "What will make this young woman never ever EVER want to do this again..." and that's what came out of his mouth. Doesn't justify it, but also doesn't condemn him as a closet sexist.

Respectfully, the actual size doesn't really matter. I think everyone here agrees he was trying to let her know she was doing something stupid, but the way it came out sounded clumsy and insulting. It is amazing that a clip from 2003 is readily available to watch after a 10-second internet search. I don't even like seeing old pictures of myself, and shudder to think there were 1000's of videos online of me saying shit I may not even remember thinking, let alone saying. And with that massive volume of material available online, I'd wager the cringe-worthy clips are pretty damn rare, even with all the wine flowing and the cameras rolling. These guys all seem good dudes, they're inspiring activists, and agents for positive change. That I think we all agree on.

And I think that was kinda the point of the OP. Stories like these are not part of the Pearl Jam canon, and as outliers, they're pretty interesting to dissect. Looking at this vid, I don't think any of us could envision this scene going down in 2016, as I think as humans, the dudes have probably all continued to improve and evolve. Good thread, cool topic, sez me.

Your comments make sense overall, but I was responding to a VERY SPECIFIC post that DID comment that the size or the hinted message about size mattered. That was all I was responding to. If you read the rest of my comments, you'll see I don't disagree with you.