Why all the killing?

brianlux said:

what dreams said:

brianlux said:

what dreams said:

brianlux said:

^^^ Good question, G, and an unsettling prospect.

A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.

I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/437610/war-cops-comes-dallas

So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?

I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?

Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?

Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?

How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?

I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?

That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")

I agree that's not what they want. But my next question is that if the statistics already show that 95% or more of the violent crimes in a neighborhood are committed by black and brown people, and 95% or more of the neighborhood is minority, whom do the police profile? I just ask. I don't imply anything in the question but I recognize the dilemma.

I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.

This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).

It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .

There is a lot of evidence that shows racial profiling exists. Good statistical info here:

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.

Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.

(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)

I've always been under the impression that prison turns criminals into more hardened criminals, not less. Is something going on there that I'm not aware of?

Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.

brianlux said:

We all have reactions to, and most of us have opinions with regard to the many various killings that are the subject of all the numerous reports we've read and seemingly endless threads we posted on here. But maybe instead of simply responding, perhaps it is time to start asking the right question, some of the answers to which might lead to solutions. Good detective work, good science, good research, all start with asking the right questions. So let's see some good questions that might lead to some useful answers as to how to lessen all the killing going on, not just in Dallas, not just in the US, but all over.

Here's the question that came to my mind today:

If black people in America were not being killed without reason by some (emphasis some) law enforcement officers or killed when other measures could have been taken first, would the tragic shooting deaths of five police officers who we're just doing their job in Dallas on 7/7/16 have occurred? (Don't read between the lines. I'm just asking the question.)

brianlux said:

We all have reactions to, and most of us have opinions with regard to the many various killings that are the subject of all the numerous reports we've read and seemingly endless threads we posted on here. But maybe instead of simply responding, perhaps it is time to start asking the right question, some of the answers to which might lead to solutions. Good detective work, good science, good research, all start with asking the right questions. So let's see some good questions that might lead to some useful answers as to how to lessen all the killing going on, not just in Dallas, not just in the US, but all over.

Here's the question that came to my mind today:

If black people in America were not being killed without reason by some (emphasis some) law enforcement officers or killed when other measures could have been taken first, would the tragic shooting deaths of five police officers who we're just doing their job in Dallas on 7/7/16 have occurred? (Don't read between the lines. I'm just asking the question.)

catefrances said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Why can't we all just get along?

because when it comes down to it, we humans are just like every other predator on this planet. we prey on the weak and vulnerable and we pretend we above animalistic urges we try so hard to repress. we like to think were above the actions of the rest of the animal kingdom we label savage, barbaric, horrifying. but the way I see it, we are so much worse. I like to think we know better, but deep down I know we are a lost cause. in the west we offer condolences when our brethren in paris or nice or London become the victims of so called terrorism yet when the same actions happen in Istanbul or we justify it in our minds as somehow understandable afterall thats what those countries are like, right? theyre not like us, right? somehow we cant seem to identify with every other human on the planet, just a select few. I don't know why that is, but I see it as a massive liability. I see our collective amnesia about our shared history as a liability too. our so called democratic governments that we allegedly elect to act in our names continually act in a manner that is detrimental to not only the people who elected them but to the rest of the planet as well and quite possibly the universe. we get so excited when a new planet is discovered that we may one colonise as if we have this desperate need to leave this one and fuck up another. I see capitalism as both the carrot dangled in front of the nose of the donkeys and as a chance for so much good yet failing to deliver on the promise. I see monarchy as the most ridiculous form of governance in the history of mankind and I see theocracies as a blight on the soul of all humanity. if history has shown us anything it is that mankind cannot get along.. we never have. the first time a human picked up a weapon and whacked his mate over head for what was no doubt a stupid and probably selfish reason was the moment the race of man was doomed. we are a violent species. we will continue to be a violent species and no amount of soul searching or logical thinking will change that. we are selfish, we are loud, we are destructive, we are our own worst enemy, we are this planets worse enemy. we are so myopic that when we speak of the destruction of the planet what we are really trying to speak of is the extinction of the human species yet we can not bring ourselves to say that lest we acknowledge our own place in that destruction.