a friend of mine put it best....... My unsolicited advice is, America is a diverse nation, and as such should embrace that. However assimilation into a homogenous society is critical for the long term growth and success of that society. To continue to point out and celebrate racial or ethnic differences and embrace multiculturalism is destructive in itself. I see cultural separation and hyphenated labels as used daily within our society as both divisive and dangerous. By that I mean, things like having a separate black history month is not just plain silly, but it tends to separate and divide us. Black history in America, is simply American history. FYI, I don't want an Irish history month either. We either want to be treated and feel the same, or we don't. Sure, acknowledge our cultural and even ethnic differences, but strive to celebrate our commonality. As long as we seek to label ourselves, and carve out special treatment based on differences we will continue to highlight differences which I believe helps fuel prejudices and exacerbates racism within our society in general.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
a friend of mine put it best....... My unsolicited advice is, America is a diverse nation, and as such should embrace that. However assimilation into a homogenous society is critical for the long term growth and success of that society. To continue to point out and celebrate racial or ethnic differences and embrace multiculturalism is destructive in itself. I see cultural separation and hyphenated labels as used daily within our society as both divisive and dangerous. By that I mean, things like having a separate black history month is not just plain silly, but it tends to separate and divide us. Black history in America, is simply American history. FYI, I don't want an Irish history month either. We either want to be treated and feel the same, or we don't. Sure, acknowledge our cultural and even ethnic differences, but strive to celebrate our commonality. As long as we seek to label ourselves, and carve out special treatment based on differences we will continue to highlight differences which I believe helps fuel prejudices and exacerbates racism within our society in general.
But GF, would not eliminating cultural diversity make for an exceedingly boring world? When all the flavors are mixed what do you get? When all the colors are mixed, what do you get? And let me ask you this: By using the user name Godfather, are you not celebrating a cultural, ethic origin yourself?
Edit: And I should be more specific because I am a Godfather myself but not Italian. I know you think of yourself as "Godfather" in the Italian "Don" sense of the word, correct?
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
a friend of mine put it best....... My unsolicited advice is, America is a diverse nation, and as such should embrace that. However assimilation into a homogenous society is critical for the long term growth and success of that society. To continue to point out and celebrate racial or ethnic differences and embrace multiculturalism is destructive in itself. I see cultural separation and hyphenated labels as used daily within our society as both divisive and dangerous. By that I mean, things like having a separate black history month is not just plain silly, but it tends to separate and divide us. Black history in America, is simply American history. FYI, I don't want an Irish history month either. We either want to be treated and feel the same, or we don't. Sure, acknowledge our cultural and even ethnic differences, but strive to celebrate our commonality. As long as we seek to label ourselves, and carve out special treatment based on differences we will continue to highlight differences which I believe helps fuel prejudices and exacerbates racism within our society in general.
I suppose you think we should all agree on just one language and do away with the others too?
Why have we become so adverse to the hard truth that we are only left with questions?
Why not spell out the hard truth in the concise manner you are used to?
Exactly what is the problem?
Why can people talk to each other using only questions? Why can't people say that this racism card has gone far enough?
Not as concise as I expected... but if I'm hearing you correctly... you're saying black people are the problem.
I guess I would infer from your stance that the social problems they experience are a result of them failing to recognize the vast amount of opportunities available to them- the same ones that you and I enjoyed becoming so awesome.
Why have we become so adverse to the hard truth that we are only left with questions?
Why not spell out the hard truth in the concise manner you are used to?
Exactly what is the problem?
Why can people talk to each other using only questions? Why can't people say that this racism card has gone far enough?
Not as concise as I expected... but if I'm hearing you correctly... you're saying black people are the problem.
I guess I would infer from your stance that the social problems they experience are a result of them failing to recognize the vast amount of opportunities available to them- the same ones that you and I enjoyed becoming so awesome.
Why have we become so adverse to the hard truth that we are only left with questions?
Why not spell out the hard truth in the concise manner you are used to?
Exactly what is the problem?
Why can people talk to each other using only questions? Why can't people say that this racism card has gone far enough?
Not as concise as I expected... but if I'm hearing you correctly... you're saying black people are the problem.
I guess I would infer from your stance that the social problems they experience are a result of them failing to recognize the vast amount of opportunities available to them- the same ones that you and I enjoyed becoming so awesome.
Do I got this right?
You got her Pontiac?
I'm not there with you to the same degree. I don't feel the inner cities are flush with opportunity. In fact, from what I have come to learn... opportunities there are few and far between.
And I feel that such conditions lead to really poor choices (given the lack of them), and much hostility.
Don't get me wrong... if someone who has had a rough upbringing kills someone... they've crossed the line. They can do the time. However, it would be short sighted to think there's a level playing field and minority groups simply don't know how to play on it.
Nice clip, Asterisk! Not even lip-synced which was unusual for TV back then.
I did a lot of searching, g under p, but I didn't even think of David Essex. The 2 I thought of were Questions by Buffalo Springfield, which Stephen Stills incorporated into CSNY's Carry On.
I was specifically looking for a clip from the 70s hoping to find one of his earlier performances. The 70s hair and sideburns were fun to see. And the suit!
Yes that's the song even my younger sister remembers me singing song cause she knew I was in big trouble. I don't what Brian was talking about with Def Lepperd. I told ya the song was weird or stood out......there's hardly any guitar or bass.
So I went to my barber and we talked about the recent shootings. He was saying these shootings against police was going to continue. I was like what you talking about.....he said it will continue to the point where marshal law will be declared. I told him you must be crazy.......but on a side note could something like that be declared if tragedies like in Dallas continues?
Peace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I do not believe Martial Law is likely to be declared. However, the President can order the military to step in. During the 1992 Los Angeles riots following the Rodney King verdict, President George HW Bush did issue an Executive Order under the Insurrection Act for using the National Guard and federal military to help control the crisis. We had mandatory curfews. There were several days of complete anarchy. LAPD was overwhelmed by the enormity of the looting, arson and destruction. There were 55 people killed during the riots. It was surreal to watch the city explode so quickly.
(Edit due to quote feature messed up, and for clarification)
Post edited by Asterisk on the Street on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
Interesting questions here. It's a whirly world, a heavy movie, a slow motion catastrophe.
In a counseling program I assisted in college, we trained students to never ask questions (yes, it's true), but rather taught them how to just lead people to find their own penny. But in the actual training, questions abounded in streams of Socratic dialogue. My hunch is that's what this country, this world, needs right now- the right questions and dialogue.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
As a Canadian I guess the thing that confuses me the most about American culture is how the 2nd Amendment is used to justify access to the most absurd weaponry imaginable. What confuses me is how Americans treat the 2nd Amendment as some sort of absolute rule when the thing is called an amendment. Can't these things be changed and if they can why do so many Americans treat it like it is some sort of sacrosanct rule that can never be interfered with? What's the deal?
The NRA intentionally started to shift the dialogue through their lobbying efforts about 40 years ago and started to buy out anyone in congress that they could. This shift eventually trickled upward to the Supreme Court. The interpretation of the 2nd Amendment has gone from gun rights being applied to the militia, to now being applied to the individual.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")
I agree that's not what they want. But my next question is that if the statistics already show that 95% or more of the violent crimes in a neighborhood are committed by black and brown people, and 95% or more of the neighborhood is minority, whom do the police profile? I just ask. I don't imply anything in the question but I recognize the dilemma.
I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.
This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).
It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .
people like to have the power over others,they have killing insticts and in usa they have the legal way to do it ...the fuckin guns
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")
I agree that's not what they want. But my next question is that if the statistics already show that 95% or more of the violent crimes in a neighborhood are committed by black and brown people, and 95% or more of the neighborhood is minority, whom do the police profile? I just ask. I don't imply anything in the question but I recognize the dilemma.
I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.
This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).
It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .
There is a lot of evidence that shows racial profiling exists. Good statistical info here:
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")
I agree that's not what they want. But my next question is that if the statistics already show that 95% or more of the violent crimes in a neighborhood are committed by black and brown people, and 95% or more of the neighborhood is minority, whom do the police profile? I just ask. I don't imply anything in the question but I recognize the dilemma.
I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.
This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).
It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .
There is a lot of evidence that shows racial profiling exists. Good statistical info here:
My questions go deeper than the random stop and search bullshit. I'm concerned with the hard core crime problem in urban areas. How do we deal with the fact that in NY, for example, African Americans make up 30% of the population but are responsible for about 80% of the violent crimes? How do we catch those violent criminals if we don't consider the unfortunate data and maybe have witnesses who can provide general descriptions but not names?
I'm just asking questions. I didn't think answers and debates were required or desired in this thread.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
A customer came in the store and asked if we had the new book about people hating cop. I told him we are all used and hadn't seen anything like that recently. He kind of grunted and walked out. I sincerely felt sorry for the guy. He looked depressed and angry. I wondered what he was thinking, how he felt, what his take on things were.
I did some research on that book and found indications that it sounds rather divisive. One article seems to infer that it goes so far as to blames Obama for what is going on (sounds familiar?)
So my question is, Why are so many so rigorously trying to make everything so (excuse the expression) black and white? Why such great effort to divide us? And what can be gained from that?
I recently saw the author of this book interviewed on C-Span. She provided an interesting statistical analysis on inner city crime, and I would be interested in learning more by reading the book. I'm always interested in alternative viewpoints, and I try my best not to think about them through a left/right lens. I know that I came to see the problem of inner city law enforcement more complexly by listening to her. The black interviewer spent the hour trying to corner the white her into admitting she's a racist, and it bothers me that people can't have a discussion without it always coming down to this. Why can't it be possible that the author as a sociologist is trying to understand crime in America?
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
That last question seems particularly important. My hunch is that the black community actually does not want white solutions but rather fewer obstacles from outside their community, the biggest being that of racial profiling (of which Wikipedia says: "According to the America Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) '"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin.")
I agree that's not what they want. But my next question is that if the statistics already show that 95% or more of the violent crimes in a neighborhood are committed by black and brown people, and 95% or more of the neighborhood is minority, whom do the police profile? I just ask. I don't imply anything in the question but I recognize the dilemma.
I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.
This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).
It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .
There is a lot of evidence that shows racial profiling exists. Good statistical info here:
My questions go deeper than the random stop and search bullshit. I'm concerned with the hard core crime problem in urban areas. How do we deal with the fact that in NY, for example, African Americans make up 30% of the population but are responsible for about 80% of the violent crimes? How do we catch those violent criminals if we don't consider the unfortunate data and maybe have witnesses who can provide general descriptions but not names?
I'm just asking questions. I didn't think answers and debates were required or desired in this thread.
Yeah, I did set it up that way didn't I, LOL!
So your questions bring a few to my mind as well: I wonder if we who are not were black or brown could become black or brown- if random stop and search would seem merely like bullshit or down right scary harassment?
And this: Why is there so much violent crime in black neighborhoods? Is it because blacks hate their own kind or is it because lack of opportunity leads to lack of self respect and/or poverty which leads to violence?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
0
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
I've always been under the impression that prison turns criminals into more hardened criminals, not less. Is something going on there that I'm not aware of?
Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
0
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
I've always been under the impression that prison turns criminals into more hardened criminals, not less. Is something going on there that I'm not aware of?
Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.
Yes, that's the point of the process in this case as I mentioned above - swear I think I'm speaking clearly but apparently not? The program is try and to curb the road they're on.
(though note that prison also punishes criminals - and if a rapist or murderer or pedo is hardened [how can that even be done?] in the process, so be it).
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
I've always been under the impression that prison turns criminals into more hardened criminals, not less. Is something going on there that I'm not aware of?
Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.
Yes, that's the point of the process in this case as I mentioned above - swear I think I'm speaking clearly but apparently not? The program is try and to curb the road they're on.
(though note that prison also punishes criminals - and if a rapist or murderer or pedo is hardened [how can that even be done?] in the process, so be it).
I think I understood your post. I just find it hard to believe that prisons today lead criminals away from crime. I'm just not convinced "rehabilitation" in prisons is a reality. Maybe that has changed in some prisons. I'd be interested in reading more about that.
I listened to a guest lecture by a high ranking prison official at a college in the early 2000's. He told us that in his opinion prison never have nor ever will be the best place to stop crime. He strongly advocated for the idea that crime is stopped before it develops- while children are developing. He recommended that this is where our focus should be.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I've been watching an ep of Beyond Scared Straight - punkass kids thrust into the prison environment with the hope they'll have the shit scared straight out of them. Not just "black or brown" - a whole cornucopia of colors.
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
I've always been under the impression that prison turns criminals into more hardened criminals, not less. Is something going on there that I'm not aware of?
Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.
Yes, that's the point of the process in this case as I mentioned above - swear I think I'm speaking clearly but apparently not? The program is try and to curb the road they're on.
(though note that prison also punishes criminals - and if a rapist or murderer or pedo is hardened [how can that even be done?] in the process, so be it).
I think I understood your post. I just find it hard to believe that prisons today lead criminals away from crime. I'm just not convinced "rehabilitation" in prisons is a reality. Maybe that has changed in some prisons. I'd be interested in reading more about that.
I listened to a guest lecture by a high ranking prison official at a college in the early 2000's. He told us that in his opinion prison never have nor ever will be the best place to stop crime. He strongly advocated for the idea that crime is stopped before it develops- while children are developing. He recommended that this is where our focus should be.
Prison won't stop crime but it will surely reduce it.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
OK, nope. This is what I was posting about to begin with!
I'm talking about introducing kids who are on that road to the potential prison life may keep them away from it.
Guess I don't see prison as solely for rehabilitation. Someone's doing 30 to life for a horrific crime? Yeah, not so worried about them healing as I am keeping them the hell away from good people.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,538
OK, nope. This is what I was posting about to begin with!
I'm talking about introducing kids who are on that road to the potential prison life may keep them away from it.
Guess I don't see prison as solely for rehabilitation. Someone's doing 30 to life for a horrific crime? Yeah, not so worried about them healing as I am keeping them the hell away from good people.
OK, I see! Yeah, that might be a good tactic. I think the other side of that is nurturing and loving kids and helping them feel confident and safe.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Unfortunately, all the evidence that we have on so called scared straight programs is that they don't work. They do not reduce the risk that those youth will go on to commit more crime; in fact, where they have any effect it is the opposite.
As much as the "tough on crime" people hate to admit it, we already have good evidence for how to reduce criminal recidivism, and it does not include longer, harsher sentences.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Comments
My unsolicited advice is, America is a diverse nation, and as such should embrace that. However assimilation into a homogenous society is critical for the long term growth and success of that society. To continue to point out and celebrate racial or ethnic differences and embrace multiculturalism is destructive in itself. I see cultural separation and hyphenated labels as used daily within our society as both divisive and dangerous. By that I mean, things like having a separate black history month is not just plain silly, but it tends to separate and divide us. Black history in America, is simply American history. FYI, I don't want an Irish history month either. We either want to be treated and feel the same, or we don't. Sure, acknowledge our cultural and even ethnic differences, but strive to celebrate our commonality. As long as we seek to label ourselves, and carve out special treatment based on differences we will continue to highlight differences which I believe helps fuel prejudices and exacerbates racism within our society in general.
Edit: And I should be more specific because I am a Godfather myself but not Italian. I know you think of yourself as "Godfather" in the Italian "Don" sense of the word, correct?
Exactly what is the problem?
Why can't people say that this racism card has gone far enough?
I guess I would infer from your stance that the social problems they experience are a result of them failing to recognize the vast amount of opportunities available to them- the same ones that you and I enjoyed becoming so awesome.
Do I got this right?
And I feel that such conditions lead to really poor choices (given the lack of them), and much hostility.
Don't get me wrong... if someone who has had a rough upbringing kills someone... they've crossed the line. They can do the time. However, it would be short sighted to think there's a level playing field and minority groups simply don't know how to play on it.
So I went to my barber and we talked about the recent shootings. He was saying these shootings against police was going to continue. I was like what you talking about.....he said it will continue to the point where marshal law will be declared. I told him you must be crazy.......but on a side note could something like that be declared if tragedies like in Dallas continues?
Peace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do not believe Martial Law is likely to be declared. However, the President can order the military to step in. During the 1992 Los Angeles riots following the Rodney King verdict, President George HW Bush did issue an Executive Order under the Insurrection Act for using the National Guard and federal military to help control the crisis. We had mandatory curfews. There were several days of complete anarchy. LAPD was overwhelmed by the enormity of the looting, arson and destruction. There were 55 people killed during the riots. It was surreal to watch the city explode so quickly.
(Edit due to quote feature messed up, and for clarification)
In a counseling program I assisted in college, we trained students to never ask questions (yes, it's true), but rather taught them how to just lead people to find their own penny. But in the actual training, questions abounded in streams of Socratic dialogue. My hunch is that's what this country, this world, needs right now- the right questions and dialogue.
Why can't white people be genuinely concerned about fixing inner city neighborhoods? To do that, don't we have to have an honest assessment of the problem?
Why do white liberals say they want to make black lives better, but when they travel to cities like Chicago for concerts, they warn others to stay away from black neighborhoods? How do we help fix those neighborhoods if we're too damned scared to go in them? If we're too scared to even go in them, how can we expect law enforcement to do it perfectly?
How has the War on Poverty contributed to the breakdown of the black family and the black middle class? What social decline has the black community experienced since integration?
I don't ask these last two questions because I'm racist and want to justify reinstituting Jim Crow in America. I ask because I have heard snippets from African American studies scholars suggesting that economically and socially, black families are worse off now than they were when they had to rely on themselves. I just truly want to know more about this and how we might use what we know historically to improve their situation now. Why do we think that in order to save black people, they need white solutions?
I do think generic descriptions have minimal value, but the police have to start somewhere. For example, I would be described as a 5'4", 140 lb, fair skinned Caucasian female with shoulder length salt and pepper hair and brown eyes. That's not going to get any cop very far, but it would at least eliminate the tall, blue-eyed blonds.
This point reminds me of that one character with the bushy pony tail in season 4 of The Wire. His drug dealing leader kept telling him to chop his pony tail off because it was too easy to identify him, and he eventually did as he got deeper into his street life. (I'm terrible with remembering character names).
It appears to me that the real problem with the profiling is not that black or brown people of similar descriptions get stopped in a neighborhood where just about everyone is black or brown. The problem is how the stop is conducted. Which takes us back where we started . . .
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html
My questions go deeper than the random stop and search bullshit. I'm concerned with the hard core crime problem in urban areas. How do we deal with the fact that in NY, for example, African Americans make up 30% of the population but are responsible for about 80% of the violent crimes? How do we catch those violent criminals if we don't consider the unfortunate data and maybe have witnesses who can provide general descriptions but not names?
I'm just asking questions. I didn't think answers and debates were required or desired in this thread.
So your questions bring a few to my mind as well: I wonder if we who are not were black or brown could become black or brown- if random stop and search would seem merely like bullshit or down right scary harassment?
And this: Why is there so much violent crime in black neighborhoods? Is it because blacks hate their own kind or is it because lack of opportunity leads to lack of self respect and/or poverty which leads to violence?
Seems much of it comes from environment, lack of structure, lack of guidance (despite attempts of the parent[s]). Many components, no way an either/or situation.
(sorry if I should've somehow posted this as a question)
Oh and this: let's officially drop the "requirement" to ask questions here (though I still encourage the notion that asking the right questions can do a lot to leading to the best solutions). That was a statement.
(though note that prison also punishes criminals - and if a rapist or murderer or pedo is hardened [how can that even be done?] in the process, so be it).
I listened to a guest lecture by a high ranking prison official at a college in the early 2000's. He told us that in his opinion prison never have nor ever will be the best place to stop crime. He strongly advocated for the idea that crime is stopped before it develops- while children are developing. He recommended that this is where our focus should be.
I'm talking about introducing kids who are on that road to the potential prison life may keep them away from it.
Guess I don't see prison as solely for rehabilitation. Someone's doing 30 to life for a horrific crime? Yeah, not so worried about them healing as I am keeping them the hell away from good people.
As much as the "tough on crime" people hate to admit it, we already have good evidence for how to reduce criminal recidivism, and it does not include longer, harsher sentences.