november rain was one drop in the bucket of Axl's extreme self indulgence at the time. not only the song itself, but have you seen the video? jumping off an aircraft carrier into an ocean of dolphins? HAHA.
the music video for "estranged" involved the dolphins. i for one have no problem with the dolphins.
I had a problem with one of those dolphins!
It's a hopeless... situation
And I'm starting to believe
november rain was one drop in the bucket of Axl's extreme self indulgence at the time. not only the song itself, but have you seen the video? jumping off an aircraft carrier into an ocean of dolphins? HAHA.
the music video for "estranged" involved the dolphins. i for one have no problem with the dolphins.
pearlgirl52
At a Pearl Jam show, hopefully. Posts: 653
The 80's is probably my least favorite decade of music actually, not to say there wasn't plenty of good music that came out of that decade (ie Metallica, U2, REM, etc), but GnR is a standout. And no, I wasn't even alive in the 80's, hell I wasn't alive the first 5 years of Pearl Jam's career either. Yet that's the music that has had a bigger impact on me than anything that was going on in the music scene during my youth. If songs like "Civil War", "Sweet Child O Mine", "Patience", "You Could be Mine" are considered "hair metal" or whatever people are calling it, then I'm not embarrassed to say I like hair bands! Cheers, everyone!
My 2 cents: GNR is not a hair band. If anything they should be classified as classic rock like AC/DC etc. Their Appetite for Destruction album was groundbreaking similar to PJ's Ten and then they made good follow up's with Use your IIlusions 1 & 2 and that's about it.
Spaghetti Incident is actually my favourite record of theirs. mainly because it shows their influences. no hair band would have recorded punk classics like they did. Cinderella and Fastere Pussycat wouldn't even have known who those artists were.
You've mentioned the things they have in common with hair metal and those comparisons have been rejected across the board. Bottom line, when most of us listen to the music we don't hear the musical comparisons you're making. About every band is subject to the times when it comes to their image.
The lyrical content and their offstage behavior isn't all that different from bands like AIC or Nirvana or PJ. If you think those 90s guys weren't partying their asses off, then your naivety is alarming. Axl was writing about the negatives of the junkie lifestyle and had a lot of political lyrics and much darker themes than the bands you're trying to compare to, He wasn't writing Girls,Girls, Girls...he was writing My Michelle.
Nobody is getting butthurt, but it can be annoying when you lay out facts and they're dismissed by someone that claims to want an open discussion.
So they don't fall into the hair band tropes of high falsetto singing, screeching powerful guitar solos, unremarkable (comparatively) rhythm section and a party image/ frequent song theme???
Dude. Why are you so hell bent on trying to classify music into silos? Who cares if GNR is a "hair band" hard rock, or whatever. They made some kick ass music during their run and lots of people loved it and still do. So does it matter if they where this type of band or that type of band? If you want to use your logic, PJ, Radiohead, and Tool could be classifield as "arena rock" since they only play arenas and large festivals thus placing them in the same category of music as Journey, Def Leppard and KISS. And at the end of the day; who cares what it's called. Just like all others forms of art there's stuff you like and stuff you don't.
As for the impact of Appetite and GNR, for me it opened up a whole new world of music. I was 11 when it came out. An aunt who was maybe 20-21 at the time found my stashed dubbed copy of Appetite while visiting. (I grew up in a very religious household in a small rural town so GNR was clearly the work of the devil and thus banished from the home so I had to stash my copy I got from a friend's older brother inside of the box spring of my bed.) She then introduced me to Zepplin, Sabbath, and Metallica. I then discovered the Misfits and punk. That album opened up a lot of musically doors for me.
For the same reason people are so hell bent on classifying them out of a particular solo...I have an opinion and I think it's right
Seriously though, labels can be uncomfortable for those put into them, but I disagree with the general desire nowadays to avoid classifying anything. Putting things in certain classes allows for comparison and dissection of the patterns and characteristics that define them.
Blind Melon was just another '90s wannabe hippie band no different from the Spin Doctors. Both had awesome bass players, both had members w/ long hair. Both wrote catchy radio friendly tunes. There you go.
Oh my god, you're being facetious, yes? I believe and hope so!
Of course I'm being facetious, we all know Spin Doctors had more influence on '90s alt rock than GNR and Blind Melon combined.
: )
Hey I LIKE the Spin Doctors more than GNR and Blind Melon. Their singer is obviously the weak link but as a core 3 piece band, they were a tight jammy unit. They put out a blues album a couple years ago and it's not bad.
And PS: GNR not a hair band. Just because they had big hair in the first video. Their music is too heavy to be a hair band.
Post edited by High Fidelity 2000 on
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The PJC metal heads have declared Appetite one of the best heavy metal albums all time, in fact, it cracked the top 10. It's over in Other Music..... you're welcome.
Spaghetti Incident is actually my favourite record of theirs. mainly because it shows their influences. no hair band would have recorded punk classics like they did. Cinderella and Fastere Pussycat wouldn't even have known who those artists were.
The Spaghetti Incident also contains covers of songs by the New York Dolls and their frontman Johnny Thunder – largely considered the godfathers of glam (and a major influence on a band like Faster Pussycat). Like I said before, people will go out of their way to convince others that the 80s bands they like shouldn’t be considered hair metal, when hair metal is pretty much the same as grunge: an awkward genre of diverse hard rock bands with a wide range of influences, lumped together by record company marketers because of their clothes and hairstyles - clothes and hairstyles that were a product of the time period as much as any attempt to be part of a movement...at least for the first one or two ‘waves’ of each genre, before those same marketers start scraping the bottom of the barrel to milk every penny from their creation's popularity. There are a ton of derivative imitators in both genres, with a limited number of talented artists driving the trends. Hair metal evolved from 70’s glam, incorporating punk, pop, and classic (blues) rock influences – many of the same influences members of PJ and other 90's bands would claim later on.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
Spaghetti Incident is actually my favourite record of theirs. mainly because it shows their influences. no hair band would have recorded punk classics like they did. Cinderella and Fastere Pussycat wouldn't even have known who those artists were.
The Spaghetti Incident also contains covers of songs by the New York Dolls and their frontman Johnny Thunder – largely considered the godfathers of glam (and a major influence on a band like Faster Pussycat). Like I said before, people will go out of their way to convince others that the 80s bands they like shouldn’t be considered hair metal, when hair metal is pretty much the same as grunge: an awkward genre of diverse hard rock bands with a wide range of influences, lumped together by record company marketers because of their clothes and hairstyles - clothes and hairstyles that were a product of the time period as much as any attempt to be part of a movement...at least for the first one or two ‘waves’ of each genre, before those same marketers start scraping the bottom of the barrel to milk every penny from their creation's popularity. There are a ton of derivative imitators in both genres, with a limited number of talented artists driving the trends. Hair metal evolved from 70’s glam, incorporating punk, pop, and classic (blues) rock influences – many of the same influences members of PJ and other 90's bands would claim later on.
of course everything evolves from everything before it, but the 80's hair bands are nowhere near what the NYD were. those bands are more of a parody of them.
hey, I listened to hair metal back in the day. many of my friends listen to "hair nation" like it's a fucking religion. I don't like all grunge bands, but I know this: almost all hair metal had a formula. grunge bands, while having the some of the same tonality, actually sounded different from each other.
I think a lot of people on here would have nothing to do with Mother Love Bone if they didn't have the PJ connection. Just sayin'. I know I don't like MLB.
I think a lot of people on here would have nothing to do with Mother Love Bone if they didn't have the PJ connection. Just sayin'. I know I don't like MLB.
I think that's truth. I dug in after falling in love with PJ and love them. The only related project I don't like is Green River. Ugh. Not that great.
I think a lot of people on here would have nothing to do with Mother Love Bone if they didn't have the PJ connection. Just sayin'. I know I don't like MLB.
Yup
0
pearlgirl52
At a Pearl Jam show, hopefully. Posts: 653
Hey now, I see everyones point about not liking MLB if it weren't for PJ, however, I would never say I like something just because it has to do with PJ. I f@#king love MLB. I might not have discovered them without PJ, but that's it. I love the music I love because it's subjective... I discovered it on my own. Not because my parent or boyfriend got me into them. I don't pretend to like anything for anyone elses benefit. I got myself into them. And I don't give a f@ck what anyone else says about what I love! Now back to GnR...
0
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens. Sorry, Ted, that's a dumb question... skip that.
These comments really got me living on the edge...
Too much! No more, no more...
I think Slash kicks ass in terms of talent. Would LOVE to see him and McCready go to town together.
(not in that way)
No love in an elevator?
The joy of life comes from our encounters with new experiences, and hence there is no greater joy than to have an endlessly changing horizon, for each day to have a new and different sun.
- Christopher McCandless
0
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I was able to get PIT tickets today for the Seattle show in the Live Nation App presale!!! Couldn't resist, have been waiting so long for this! Guess I could change the title of this thread to "2 GnR tickets have cost me the same amount as 8 PJ shows -- MSG x2 , Philly x2 , 2 Fenway, and 2 Wrigley"
Thankfully I didn't go to hardly any shows last year, so there's money saved for going to 14 PJ shows this year and GnR in Seattle. Will definitely have a good pair to sell now for Seattle.
Love how this thread has evolved. Very interesting and comical takes.
PS: TOUR STARTS TOMORROW!!! Can't wait to see posters and set lists up til Lexington and shows after that!
1992-07-21 Vancouver
1993-9-4 Vancouver
1996-9-16 Seattle
1998-7-19 Vancouver, 7-21 Seattle, Memorial Stadium
2000-11-6 Seattle
2001-10-22 Seattle
2002 -12-09 Seattle
2009-8-17 Manchester, 9-25 Vancouver
2011-6-16 Seattle (EV), 9-3/4 PJ20, 9-25 Vancouver
2012-6-27 Amsterdam (#2!)
2013-11-29 Portland, 12-4 Vancouver, 12-6 Seattle
2014-AUS - 1-26 Sydney, 1-31 Adelaide, 2-11/12 EV Sydney State Theatre, 2-13 EV Opera House
2014 - USA - Memphis, Detroit, MOLINE, St. Paul, MILWAUKEE, Denver, 25/26 Bridge School
2016 - Lexington, Philly x 2, MSG x 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto x 2, Pemberton, Fenway x 2, Wrigley x 2 2018 - Seattle x 2, Missoula, Fenway x 2
I think a lot of people on here would have nothing to do with Mother Love Bone if they didn't have the PJ connection. Just sayin'. I know I don't like MLB.
I agree, and I don't like MLB either. I've always found the very extreme fondness for that band among PJ fans somewhat perplexing. They were okay at best.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If November Rain isn't a classic power ballad, then there is no such thing!
Again, I am not saying GNR sucks, they can be very entertaining and some Slash licks are immortally good... But let's take the rose-tinted glasses off and be real about who and what they were, and how they fit into the musical landscape of their time.
Honest question: if you weren't there for it, as it was happening, how would you have any sort of perspective for how they fit into the musical landscape of their time? How can you 'be real about who and what they were' if you weren't around to see how they compared to everything else on the radio in 1986?
You're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to mine, and if you think a band like Blind Melon had more influence on '90s alternative music than GNR, I feel like you're the one wearing the rose colored glasses. (Bear in mind, I'm a fan of Blind Melon too)
(Fun fact: did you know Shannon Hoon was a backup singer for GNR before Blind Melon got their break? Maybe GNR were more influential on your music than you realize.)
It's called objectivity. Hindsight is very nice for seeing things as they WERE without the bias that is inherited from experiencing how they were PERCEIVED at the time. They were definitely a step in the right direction, and a huge influence on the music scene that was coming, but they weren't that scene, they were the last glorious blast of the old scene.
No, it's really not and youve shown an insane amount of bias to even try to to declare that.
I was 5-10 years old during GnR's heyday so I don't really have that nostalgic connection from that time period. I have listened to their music and grown to appreciate it in my own time and I just don't hear the comparisons you're trying to make. They're just not there. From the music, to the lyrical content, to their image....it's much closer to 90s bands than the hair/glam metal guys. Sure, it had some 80s flair to it, but so did a lot of the other guys that are now early 90s alt rock heroes.
I have articulated many things which are more similar to "hair" than "grunge", but the only argument that has been posed to articulate the difference between GNR and the hair bands is that they were more raw. That is a quantitative argument, not qualitative. What quality does GNR have that is different from the hair bands? As an example, Radiohead abandoned the hard rock power guitar cliche for haunting melodies and a stripped down style. Nirvana abandoned the excessive party ethos for a more ascetic rock ethic, and they stripped the formula down to a 3 man distortion machine. Those are qualitative differences, saying GNR was rawer and more explosive is a quantitative difference. They shared the dangerous, party hard, rock n roll mentality, with the classic hair band components (screeching vocals and guitar leads). To say they were heavier, drawer, more dangerous, etc only makes them the best hair band, it doesn't set them apart.
I don't hate GNR, I don't see why we can't have a discussion about their music without people getting so butthurt.
I have to agree that you're just off on this. I know it's your opinion, but it's wrong. GnR wasn't simply like the hair bands but more raw. They were something completely different altogether, and one of the things that made them that was that they were more raw. But that was far from the only thing. Lol, no worries, not butt hurt. But I'm just getting the impression that you're not quite clear on what they were like or what kind of impression they made at the time. I guess it's all collectively been said in this thread, so no need to go over it again... just sayin', really. They simply were not a hair band. They DEFINITELY were not the last hurrah of the hair bands as you suggest. They were the beginning of something different, not the end of something old.
But what can you point to besides an intangible feeling, that separates them?
What kind of impression they made at the time doesn't seem relevant to me, impressions are often wrong.
Their sound, substance and style. They don't sound like a hair band, they don't write songs the same way as a hair band and they don't look anymore like a hair band than your typical rocker of the day.
If we're gonna dismiss the impression they made at the time, then nothing means anything at all. It's really a ludicrous argument. Not only that, plenty of people who are much older and younger are taking the same stance as people that were 15-24 in 1987.
But jesus, I listened to Coma on repeat for an entire day. fucking brilliant piece of music.
Saw them in 91 before the discs were released..Greensboro,NC..3 1/2 hour show..incredible honestly..they did Coma and it was amazing...explained by Axl that it was written before Appetite was released and he was indeed contemplating suicide..
Comments
And I'm starting to believe
Cheers,
HFD
And PS: GNR not a hair band. Just because they had big hair in the first video. Their music is too heavy to be a hair band.
New Mexico Pearl Jam Fans (New Mexico, USA) on Facebook!
Like I said before, people will go out of their way to convince others that the 80s bands they like shouldn’t be considered hair metal, when hair metal is pretty much the same as grunge: an awkward genre of diverse hard rock bands with a wide range of influences, lumped together by record company marketers because of their clothes and hairstyles - clothes and hairstyles that were a product of the time period as much as any attempt to be part of a movement...at least for the first one or two ‘waves’ of each genre, before those same marketers start scraping the bottom of the barrel to milk every penny from their creation's popularity. There are a ton of derivative imitators in both genres, with a limited number of talented artists driving the trends.
Hair metal evolved from 70’s glam, incorporating punk, pop, and classic (blues) rock influences – many of the same influences members of PJ and other 90's bands would claim later on.
Some folks here have certainly got some toys in the attic, though.
Me, I let the music do the talking.
GNR are Back in the Saddle after 20+ years.
tickets are gonna be expensive.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
(I like Aerosmith!)
hey, I listened to hair metal back in the day. many of my friends listen to "hair nation" like it's a fucking religion. I don't like all grunge bands, but I know this: almost all hair metal had a formula. grunge bands, while having the some of the same tonality, actually sounded different from each other.
Cheers,
HFD
Cheers,
HFD
I think Slash kicks ass in terms of talent. Would LOVE to see him and McCready go to town together.
(not in that way)
- Christopher McCandless
(my friend
Thankfully I didn't go to hardly any shows last year, so there's money saved for going to 14 PJ shows this year and GnR in Seattle. Will definitely have a good pair to sell now for Seattle.
Love how this thread has evolved. Very interesting and comical takes.
PS: TOUR STARTS TOMORROW!!! Can't wait to see posters and set lists up til Lexington and shows after that!
1993-9-4 Vancouver
1996-9-16 Seattle
1998-7-19 Vancouver, 7-21 Seattle, Memorial Stadium
2000-11-6 Seattle
2001-10-22 Seattle
2002 -12-09 Seattle
2009-8-17 Manchester, 9-25 Vancouver
2011-6-16 Seattle (EV), 9-3/4 PJ20, 9-25 Vancouver
2012-6-27 Amsterdam (#2!)
2013-11-29 Portland, 12-4 Vancouver, 12-6 Seattle
2014-AUS - 1-26 Sydney, 1-31 Adelaide, 2-11/12 EV Sydney State Theatre, 2-13 EV Opera House
2014 - USA - Memphis, Detroit, MOLINE, St. Paul, MILWAUKEE, Denver, 25/26 Bridge School
2016 - Lexington, Philly x 2, MSG x 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto x 2, Pemberton, Fenway x 2, Wrigley x 2
2018 - Seattle x 2, Missoula, Fenway x 2
Hampton 2016
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.