Bernie Sanders for President

PJfanwillneverleave1 · April 2016

^^^
This is an excellent question PJ_Soul.
Everyone is the same and some people don't like others to get ahead.
Everybody wants to survive and produce in this world - at least I hope anyway. So share the knowledge and skills amongst everyone.

DM282158 · April 2016

PJ_Soul said:

DM282158 said:
I find this thread one of the most politically mature at the moment. And that is not a knock at any candidate's discussion. Coming from an independent voter who has voted for both Repub's and Dem's.

Just my two cents (a bit off topic). I find the Dem nomination process to be far more worth the time thus far - actually debating policy sometimes, versus not at all (aside from Kasich).

Specifically, the one area that worries me a bit about Sander's proposals is free college tuition. I believe the student debt issue is the #1 economic issue facing this country in the present and MOST CERTAINLY in the future. But I feel there could be a better way.

I guess my stance comes from the notion of "not wanting my tax dollars going towards someone's tuition whom I don't know".

Not sure if I'm alone.

1 week until the tour. Cheers and safe travels to you all!
Why not? Your tax dollars already to go to tuition for children in elementary and high school who you don't know. Why do you draw the line right when school actually becomes most specific and useful to society?

That's certainly a valid point. I'll rebuddle with that the elementary and high school cost per student is vastly less than the average tuition cost for public colleges. And I just feel the line would need to be drawn at some point. And that how would it be fair to those who elect not to attend college?

Don't get my wrong, I have a lot of respect for Sanders and the fact that he is providing a narrative that this country desperately needs (anti-establishment).

PJ_Soul · April 2016

I actually feel that providing 100% of tuition is overboard. You're right, it's too expensive. However, I strongly support a government subsidizing tuition costs heavily (as is done in Canada), i.e. funding goes directly to the universities so that the schools can keep tuition low. I also support a government mandated tuition cap under this system (to prevent universities from taking advantage). Students pay some, taxes pay some. That keeps it reasonably affordable on both sides. And by affordable to students, I mean an amount that can realistically be earned by them if they have part time jobs while going to school full time, plus bursaries, and perhaps some small student loans.

Free · April 2016

I think 100% free is too ambitious as well. But you can't deny, that it gets the conversation going. Universities in Europe DO offer free tuition. The least we can do is lower our sky high tuition prices. And if that means being extreme to talk about it - at first anyway - so be it. Because I feel that just talking about reductions isn't going to get us anywhere.

PJ_Soul · April 2016

Just talking about anything isn't going to get you anywhere. Someone actually has to have the balls to do something like that, and the fucking Republicans have to get over themselves and let a Democrat get something done.
It is, however, totally doable.

brianlux · April 2016

It's not as far-fetched an idea as some would suppose. This is from Bernie's web site:

MAKE TUITION FREE AT PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

This is not a radical idea. Last year, Germany eliminated tuition because they believed that charging students $1,300 per year was discouraging Germans from going to college. Next year, Chile will do the same. Finland, Norway, Sweden and many other countries around the world also offer free college to all of their citizens. If other countries can take this action, so can the United States of America.

In fact, it’s what many of our colleges and universities used to do. The University of California system offered free tuition at its schools until the 1980s. In 1965, average tuition at a four-year public university was just $243 and many of the best colleges – including the City University of New York – did not charge any tuition at all. The Sanders plan would make tuition free at public colleges and universities throughout the country.

FULLY PAID FOR BY IMPOSING A TAX ON WALL STREET SPECULATORS.

The cost of this $75 billion a year plan is fully paid for by imposing a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy seven years ago. More than 1,000 economists have endorsed a tax on Wall Street speculation and today some 40 countries throughout the world have imposed a similar tax including Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, and China. If the taxpayers of this country could bailout Wall Street in 2008, we can make public colleges and universities tuition free and debt free throughout the country.

jeffbr · April 2016

I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.

mrussel1 · April 2016

^^ Jeffbr hit it perfectly. Sometimes I think he is my twin posting. This is the issue I raised to PJSoul yesterday or so, asking for how Canada does it and whether public schools are federal or provincially funded. Our schools are state controlled. How do you have a federal agency support those state schools and how do you keep the costs down? This is my biggest issue with Bernie's plan. His proposal is about paying for school but is silent about the obscene rise in the cost of education. I don't see where there is incentive or control to keep costs down.

I believe firmly that today's kids need more than a HS education to compete. No doubt. But we are set up to as a country to run things at the state level. The states should be attacking this issue, or at least test it there. What he is proposing is basically an excise tax. And economic history will show you that excise taxes decrease usage. The costs will continue to rise in education, but revenue will go down unless the taxes increase on 'speculation', which is a negative way to say trading.

brianlux · April 2016

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.

Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.

Free · April 2016

To say that states should be attacking the education issue is all fine and dandy. But who's going to force them to address it? No one. we can talk about states changing til we're blue in the face, doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it. Only if the federal government gets involved in anything change here about university tuition.

jeffbr · April 2016

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.

100% agree, Brian. I'm definitely a proponent of curbing tuition costs. I understand that private universities have the right to charge whatever they want for education, but would think that a state subsidized college or university could be mandated to make and keep tuition affordable. Especially since those same students and their families are getting double-dipped - they're paying high tuition costs for a school that their tax dollars are subsidizing. The state gets you coming and going.

Free · April 2016

jeffbr said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
100% agree, Brian. I'm definitely a proponent of curbing tuition costs. I understand that private universities have the right to charge whatever they want for education, but would think that a state subsidized college or university could be mandated to make and keep tuition affordable. Especially since those same students and their families are getting double-dipped - they're paying high tuition costs for a school that their tax dollars are subsidizing. The state gets you coming and going.

Mandated. That's where the fed govt comes in.

jeffbr · April 2016

Free said:

jeffbr said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
100% agree, Brian. I'm definitely a proponent of curbing tuition costs. I understand that private universities have the right to charge whatever they want for education, but would think that a state subsidized college or university could be mandated to make and keep tuition affordable. Especially since those same students and their families are getting double-dipped - they're paying high tuition costs for a school that their tax dollars are subsidizing. The state gets you coming and going.
Mandated. That's where the fed govt comes in.

Well, sure. But there are things that the feds can't necessarily mandate without a Supreme Court battle. States rights are a big issue, and quite frankly I'm more happy being a citizen of my state than this federal union, so it goes back to the point made earlier that there will need to be a pretty big paradigm shift for Bernie to be able to implement a federal free tuition program.

mrussel1 · April 2016

jeffbr said:

Free said:

jeffbr said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
100% agree, Brian. I'm definitely a proponent of curbing tuition costs. I understand that private universities have the right to charge whatever they want for education, but would think that a state subsidized college or university could be mandated to make and keep tuition affordable. Especially since those same students and their families are getting double-dipped - they're paying high tuition costs for a school that their tax dollars are subsidizing. The state gets you coming and going.
Mandated. That's where the fed govt comes in.
Well, sure. But there are things that the feds can't necessarily mandate without a Supreme Court battle. States rights are a big issue, and quite frankly I'm more happy being a citizen of my state than this federal union, so it goes back to the point made earlier that there will need to be a pretty big paradigm shift for Bernie to be able to implement a federal free tuition program.

The 10th Amendment gets in the way...

Anyway, this got me thinking. What the federal gov't could do is create a program whereby they provide x dollars (call it 5k) per year to full time students and y dollars to part time, not to exceed Z. This can be used towards the state tuition and it could have the effect of drawing students into Jucos or less expensive state schools. You can pay for it with excise taxes if you wish (don't demonize the market... that's where your retirement is). Schools just...might... have the incentive to keep the costs down to attract more students. And it could make students more likely to go to important trade schools like nursing, fireman's (electrical) or other because they could have real career with little out of pocket expense. Important part is that the taxes aren't tied to the cost of tuition. That's a flat amount.

Here's the important part. You are required to contribute so many charitable hours (mentoring, boys and girls club, WPA type stuff) within the 'deferment period' as your payment for this free tuition. We need more volunteers in the country and perhaps we can kill two birds.

Obviously I haven't fleshed this out for more than 2 minutes and the Congressional Budget Office hasn't run my numbers...yet... but it's my thought or pragmatic approach.

DM282158 · April 2016

A lot to be said for debating and discussing enormous issues within this country.

Imagine if our leaders in DC could do the same....... Both sides.

Cheers all.

brianlux · April 2016

DM282158 said:
A lot to be said for debating and discussing enormous issues within this country.

Imagine if our leaders in DC could do the same....... Both sides.

Cheers all.

Good idea, DM!

Cheers to you as well!

benjs · April 2016

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.

Just an FYI, here in Canada my tuition costs were nearly $8000 a year (two semesters), and that of course includes our government's assistance. That being said, I've heard the horror stories of $40-50,000 in the US and that kind of thing simply doesn't happen here.

DM282158 · April 2016

benjs said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
Just an FYI, here in Canada my tuition costs were nearly $8000 a year (two semesters), and that of course includes our government's assistance. That being said, I've heard the horror stories of $40-50,000 in the US and that kind of thing simply doesn't happen here.

From my perspective - I question how inflation can go up about 1%, college tuition can go up like 10-15%.

It confuses me because more students are going to college. Meaning you have better revenues, are still considered non-profit (don't get me started on that term...), and you have the government encouraging more and more students to continue to attend.

When my business adds more customers, I don't need to increase my fees, especially 10-15%. (I know, bad analogy.) I get supply and demand, but 10-15% per year??

I think interest rates HAVE to be capped. I hear of 7-9% - that's absurd.

I wonder what would happen if students simply went "screw it, I'm not going to college". I wonder if the institutions would freak out and lower fees. I know that's a pipe dream and not good since students wouldn't receive higher education. But I often ponder how that would affect things.

Great to talk with you folks!

DM282158 · April 2016

mrussel1 said:

jeffbr said:

Free said:

jeffbr said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
100% agree, Brian. I'm definitely a proponent of curbing tuition costs. I understand that private universities have the right to charge whatever they want for education, but would think that a state subsidized college or university could be mandated to make and keep tuition affordable. Especially since those same students and their families are getting double-dipped - they're paying high tuition costs for a school that their tax dollars are subsidizing. The state gets you coming and going.
Mandated. That's where the fed govt comes in.
Well, sure. But there are things that the feds can't necessarily mandate without a Supreme Court battle. States rights are a big issue, and quite frankly I'm more happy being a citizen of my state than this federal union, so it goes back to the point made earlier that there will need to be a pretty big paradigm shift for Bernie to be able to implement a federal free tuition program.
The 10th Amendment gets in the way...

Anyway, this got me thinking. What the federal gov't could do is create a program whereby they provide x dollars (call it 5k) per year to full time students and y dollars to part time, not to exceed Z. This can be used towards the state tuition and it could have the effect of drawing students into Jucos or less expensive state schools. You can pay for it with excise taxes if you wish (don't demonize the market... that's where your retirement is). Schools just...might... have the incentive to keep the costs down to attract more students. And it could make students more likely to go to important trade schools like nursing, fireman's (electrical) or other because they could have real career with little out of pocket expense. Important part is that the taxes aren't tied to the cost of tuition. That's a flat amount.

Here's the important part. You are required to contribute so many charitable hours (mentoring, boys and girls club, WPA type stuff) within the 'deferment period' as your payment for this free tuition. We need more volunteers in the country and perhaps we can kill two birds.

Obviously I haven't fleshed this out for more than 2 minutes and the Congressional Budget Office hasn't run my numbers...yet... but it's my thought or pragmatic approach.

This is interesting....

Off topic but I have felt community service to be required with other government assistance programs as well.

Solid idea, mrussel.

Bentleyspop · April 2016

benjs said:

brianlux said:

jeffbr said:
I think the answer to why this would be very difficult to implement here in the US is actually briefly touched on within the article itself. Examples are given of European countries that provide this. Another example was given regarding the University of California system. The US doesn't run these UC universities. The individual states fund the public universities within their own borders. I'm not aware of any federal public universities, although they may exist. So how do we transition the state schools to become federal schools so that we can implement something like this? Or do the Feds tax the Wall Street speculators and then provide that tax revenue to the individual states to cover the cost of providing the free tuition? Does that then mean that the Federal Dept of Education has oversight of all public universities (which will of course require growing that department)? That sounds like a decades long process fraught with politics. I'm not saying this isn't a noble goal. I'm just wondering how this actually gets implemented. I'm carrying some education debt from my kids, so I'm all too painfully aware of how ridiculously expensive higher education is, and would love to see a solution to curbing costs, so I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic here.
Good points here, Jeff. Any changes of this sort will be difficult.

No matter what happens, we would be wise to make college more affordable at the very least.

Adjusting for inflation, what I paid for a full load (15 units) at San Francisco State University should today cost $323.04 But in fact, a 15 unit semester load at that school today will cost a freshman $2736.00, almost 8 1/2 times what I paid. That's simply unacceptable.
Just an FYI, here in Canada my tuition costs were nearly $8000 a year (two semesters), and that of course includes our government's assistance. That being said, I've heard the horror stories of $40-50,000 in the US and that kind of thing simply doesn't happen here.

For some schools $40-50,000 would be getting off cheap.
My girlfriend and I were recently looking through the big book of U.S. colleges ( U.S. News and World Report ) for her son to visit. Some of the more well known private colleges and universities have passed $60,000 for tuition, room/board, books, and fees. Plus travel and other related expenses and your pushing $75,000 per year.

Bernie Sanders for President

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