Totally agree with mrussel1. I am so tired of being told that I only choose what I choose because I'm not informed.
I don't hate Bernie or his supporters just because I will support Clinton in the general. I totally agree that there is vast income inequality in this country. I just don't spend my days wondering about everybody else's income. I spend my days wondering what I can do for myself to improve my own lot. I absolutely reject the idea that the government can solve my problems or that somehow we need to elect Bernie so that all the corporations roll over and start handing out cake to the peasants.
Honestly, reading though all of Free's and brianlux's posts . . . They come across as desperate. I understand and appreciate the passion, but replaying the same old lines over and over, sometimes bolded, sometimes in caps, is not persuasive at all. You can only say the same things so many times before people stop listening, so yes, you are talking to a wall. Shouting louder each time isn't going to change that. It seems like an enormous waste of energy to think your campaign efforts on PJ.com is going to change the course of the election. But do carry on if you will.
First of all, you're posting in a Bernie Sanders for president thread, so if you believe you're being told something specific, perhaps maybe you should read another political thread.
And remind me who pretty much is the only one who posts info with credible sources, fact check and snopes here. Oh yeah, me! Yet, you think Brian and I are desperate.
Yeah, this isn't dismissive at all, Brian. I hope you can see how the "attack the opponent" game has been played.
And who is anyone to dictate what should or shouldn't be read (or participated in?) here. More BS, unfortunately.
Maybe so. It doesn't negate the fact that this thread appears to be a thread with only one or two posters actually supplying information, while others are about merely being critical of the candidate with little real debate or good discussion.
Ah, so laughing at someone and (unnecessarily) calling them uninformed IS real debate and good discussion.
Totally agree with mrussel1. I am so tired of being told that I only choose what I choose because I'm not informed.
I don't hate Bernie or his supporters just because I will support Clinton in the general. I totally agree that there is vast income inequality in this country. I just don't spend my days wondering about everybody else's income. I spend my days wondering what I can do for myself to improve my own lot. I absolutely reject the idea that the government can solve my problems or that somehow we need to elect Bernie so that all the corporations roll over and start handing out cake to the peasants.
Honestly, reading though all of Free's and brianlux's posts . . . They come across as desperate. I understand and appreciate the passion, but replaying the same old lines over and over, sometimes bolded, sometimes in caps, is not persuasive at all. You can only say the same things so many times before people stop listening, so yes, you are talking to a wall. Shouting louder each time isn't going to change that. It seems like an enormous waste of energy to think your campaign efforts on PJ.com is going to change the course of the election. But do carry on if you will.
First of all, you're posting in a Bernie Sanders for president thread, so if you believe you're being told something specific, perhaps maybe you should read another political thread.
And remind me who pretty much is the only one who posts info with credible sources, fact check and snopes here. Oh yeah, me! Yet, you think Brian and I are desperate.
Yeah, this isn't dismissive at all, Brian. I hope you can see how the "attack the opponent" game has been played.
And who is anyone to dictate what should or shouldn't be read (or participated in?) here. More BS, unfortunately.
Maybe so. It doesn't negate the fact that this thread appears to be a thread with only one or two posters actually supplying information, while others are about merely being critical of the candidate with little real debate or good discussion.
Ah, so laughing at someone and (unnecessarily) calling them uninformed IS real debate and good discussion.
Maybe so indeed, by some double standards.
Got it, and it's a shame.
I don't play your games.
I don't want to play with you anyway, so there.
(regressing is fun, isn't it?)
All I'm saying is that it's possible to discuss and debate, and leave dickishness and condescension at the door.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
Am I left or far left on your scale?
I'm pretty sure you're right of center.
Edit - and I think you're Canadian, correct? Or at least not an American. You've made references as if you're not in the States.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Shitting on the party? Isn't it the duty of party members to call bullshit when they see it? Besides, as I see it, Bernie is more Democrat than Hillary who is more Republican conservative than Progressive Democrat- by a long shot, really.
And, no, believe it or not I am not that loyal a Bernie fan. Loyal enough to defend strongly what I believe, yes. To the death, no way.
“I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall in ruin before I would sell a friend to save them.” –Edward Abbey
We may meet at a show one day and get along fantastically. I would stay true to that Abbey quote. Politics is not that personal to me. It's a much bigger picture than me and you.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Dude, respectfully, you are uninformed.
I guess I'm uninformed enough to check the source of what you claimed to be an "unbiased" news article, only to see that the source itself unabashedly calls itself a progressive news source. I'm just pointing out how intellectually dishonest you are.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
How is someone speaking their mind, calmly and civilly, being dramatic? But laughing at them and their points isn't even a bit drama-queeny?
Opinions can't help but become a part of debates - our experiences form our views, sure - and it's possible to exercise rationale along with that. It's also important how these views are presented (and also how some will summarily dismiss or shit on them).
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Dude, respectfully, you are uninformed.
I guess I'm uninformed enough to check the source of what you claimed to be an "unbiased" news article, only to see that the source itself unabashedly calls itself a progressive news source. I'm just pointing out how intellectually dishonest you are.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Aw come on man, really? You're going to let the opinions of ONE SINGLE PERSON here (with the help of a few of us other party-hijacking hooligans-- just kidding but that's what we've been called, right?) on a rock band forum sway you against someone you previously supported and even voted for?
And come on, everybody knows that in this present period of time in our history no one has single damn chance of getting elected if they don't register Rep or Dem. And besides, why is it a problem that political parties be subject to change. Remember, at one point in history, the Republican party was the conservation (in today's terminology "environmental") party. We're not "hijacking" your party. We're trying to get the one person we see as best suited for the job elected. You get to choose: a business man who has not business running for the office, a woman whom far to many people distrust and who is STRONGLY tied to her corporate sponsors, or a good, decent honest man who want s to make life better for the average person. Seems like an easy choice to me. Bernie isn't perfect but look at the alternatives. No thanks!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
The difference is my posts are my opinion, I'm not co-opting someone else's thoughts. For instance, I said the other day that the US is the most inclusive democracy in our nation's history. I didn't post a source for that because that statement is a culmination of my own reading and academic study. Now you promptly laughed at that so I asked you for a time period where it was more inclusive. You have failed to come forth but I didn't expect you to do so, because I'm actually right. It's a pretty easy argument when you think about it..
My point is, my arguments are my own. I have no links. If you want to challenge one of the facts that lead to my conclusion, feel free. And that's true for many of us here. We are informed by our own reading PLUS experience.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
How is someone speaking their mind, calmly and civilly, being dramatic? But laughing at them and their points isn't even a bit drama-queeny?
Opinions can't help but become a part of debates - our experiences form our views, sure - and it's possible to exercise rationale along with that. It's also important how these views are presented (and also how some will summarily dismiss or shit on them).
Good post Hedo. Although it still leaves a little wiggle room for the religious mind to debate.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
How is someone speaking their mind, calmly and civilly, being dramatic? But laughing at them and their points isn't even a bit drama-queeny?
Opinions can't help but become a part of debates - our experiences form our views, sure - and it's possible to exercise rationale along with that. It's also important how these views are presented (and also how some will summarily dismiss or shit on them).
Good post Hedo. Although it still leaves a little wiggle room for the religious mind to debate.
Thank you, though I'm not sure how religion enters into this - into my comments?
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Dude, respectfully, you are uninformed.
I guess I'm uninformed enough to check the source of what you claimed to be an "unbiased" news article, only to see that the source itself unabashedly calls itself a progressive news source. I'm just pointing out how intellectually dishonest you are.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Aw come on man, really? You're going to let the opinions of ONE SINGLE PERSON here (with the help of a few of us other party-hijacking hooligans-- just kidding but that's what we've been called, right?) on a rock band forum sway you against someone you previously supported and even voted for?
And come on, everybody knows that in this present period of time in our history no one has single damn chance of getting elected if they don't register Rep or Dem. And besides, why is it a problem that political parties be subject to change. Remember, at one point in history, the Republican party was the conservation (in today's terminology "environmental") party. We're not "hijacking" your party. We're trying to get the one person we see as best suited for the job elected. You get to choose: a business man who has not business running for the office, a woman whom far to many people distrust and who is STRONGLY tied to her corporate sponsors, or a good, decent honest man who want s to make life better for the average person. Seems like an easy choice to me. Bernie isn't perfect but look at the alternatives. No thanks!
To answer the question in the second paragraph: yes. This forum is where I find myself disgusted with Sanders. I listen to his speeches on C-Span -- not alarmed by Sanders. I listen to his interviews and commentary on the networks and NPR -- not alarmed by Sanders. I read articles in the major newspapers -- not alarmed by Sanders. I come here and it's doomsday this and doomsday that. You remind me with each post that I am not at all that far left, nor do I ever want to live in a country that is.
And really, the incessant Hillary bashing is just a major turn off. It's actually had the effect of making me admire her more for being able to withstand a lifetime of attacks. Sanders pledged early on that he would not run a negative campaign, and by and large he has not, until recently. But dang, he doesn't need to. His supporters have got it covered. You all have been brutally relentless, as bad as the Republicans. You can feel what you feel and say what you say, but the more you harp, the more I find reason to defend her because I find many of your criticisms irrational when looking at the larger political landscape.
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Dude, respectfully, you are uninformed.
I guess I'm uninformed enough to check the source of what you claimed to be an "unbiased" news article, only to see that the source itself unabashedly calls itself a progressive news source. I'm just pointing out how intellectually dishonest you are.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Aw come on man, really? You're going to let the opinions of ONE SINGLE PERSON here (with the help of a few of us other party-hijacking hooligans-- just kidding but that's what we've been called, right?) on a rock band forum sway you against someone you previously supported and even voted for?
And come on, everybody knows that in this present period of time in our history no one has single damn chance of getting elected if they don't register Rep or Dem. And besides, why is it a problem that political parties be subject to change. Remember, at one point in history, the Republican party was the conservation (in today's terminology "environmental") party. We're not "hijacking" your party. We're trying to get the one person we see as best suited for the job elected. You get to choose: a business man who has not business running for the office, a woman whom far to many people distrust and who is STRONGLY tied to her corporate sponsors, or a good, decent honest man who want s to make life better for the average person. Seems like an easy choice to me. Bernie isn't perfect but look at the alternatives. No thanks!
To answer the question in the second paragraph: yes. This forum is where I find myself disgusted with Sanders. I listen to his speeches on C-Span -- not alarmed by Sanders. I listen to his interviews and commentary on the networks and NPR -- not alarmed by Sanders. I read articles in the major newspapers -- not alarmed by Sanders. I come here and it's doomsday this and doomsday that. You remind me with each post that I am not at all that far left, nor do I ever want to live in a country that is.
And really, the incessant Hillary bashing is just a major turn off. It's actually had the effect of making me admire her more for being able to withstand a lifetime of attacks. Sanders pledged early on that he would not run a negative campaign, and by and large he has not, until recently. But dang, he doesn't need to. His supporters have got it covered. You all have been brutally relentless, as bad as the Republicans. You can feel what you feel and say what you say, but the more you harp, the more I find reason to defend her because I find many of your criticisms irrational when looking at the larger political landscape.
In many ways I'm actually rather conservative, I never attacked Hillary but simply described what is known to be true (the truth is painful, I know), I'm not the thug you seem to think I am and, most importantly, I don't harp, I guitar.
Jeez man, relax, will ya!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
The difference is my posts are my opinion, I'm not co-opting someone else's thoughts. For instance, I said the other day that the US is the most inclusive democracy in our nation's history. I didn't post a source for that because that statement is a culmination of my own reading and academic study. Now you promptly laughed at that so I asked you for a time period where it was more inclusive. You have failed to come forth but I didn't expect you to do so, because I'm actually right. It's a pretty easy argument when you think about it..
My point is, my arguments are my own. I have no links. If you want to challenge one of the facts that lead to my conclusion, feel free. And that's true for many of us here. We are informed by our own reading PLUS experience.
If you don't/can't see how your way of debate has no validity to it w/ no sources backing it up, and the refusal to acknowledge half the shit the DNC is pulling, there is no use.
Thug? Where have I called you a thug? That's drama talk. Perhaps you should also relax.
Just for fun, I would love for you to list all the conservative beliefs you espouse. You've said this to me before, and out of everything else, I find this statement to be most interesting. Please elaborate. In what ways do you consider yourself conservative? And what parts of the Sanders platform match those beliefs?
Sorry, I don't know how to attach links or copy and paste links on my phone, and since I don't consider posting on a Pearl Jam forum the equivalent of writing a doctoral thesis, I don't plan on learning how.
If you're using an iPhone or similar device and are interested in conversing on a current events site, you really would do well to learn how to copy and paste links. It just can't be that hard and I'm telling you this as one admittedly marginally adept at using electronic devices. I don't even know how to take a picture with my cell phone but if I were engaged in trading phone picture I would learn how to in probably less than two minutes.
I second hedo's statement above about the lack of consideration for other people's intelligence in this thread. Calling other people uninformed while bragging about your "unbiased" Facebook news source is pretty lazy argumentation. You do, in fact, sound like my brother, the Trump supporter. All his "unbiased" news comes from Facebook as well.
""unbiased" Facebook news source"? That's all that you seen anyone supporting Bernie here post? I don't think so. That sounds like a desperate attempt to disparage Sanders supporters. Are you sure you can't some up with something more substantial than that or are we just playing some "attack the opponent" video game here?
Not "attack the opponent." For some reason the two of you keep setting yourselves up as opponents.
I get you support Sanders to the death. I voted for him in the primary. But for goodness sakes, he's running as Democratic candidate, hoping to win the nomination so as to have the DNC machine at his disposal if he wins. I do find it pretty pathetic that if he were to win, all of the Clinton supporters who have worked damn hard for the party would have to support someone who just spits in their face day in and out? My god, if the Democratic party were so awful, then he should have run as the socialist independent that he is. I don't blame the DNC one bit for standing up to him. You can't run as a party candidate while shitting on the party.
Dude, respectfully, you are uninformed.
I guess I'm uninformed enough to check the source of what you claimed to be an "unbiased" news article, only to see that the source itself unabashedly calls itself a progressive news source. I'm just pointing out how intellectually dishonest you are.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Aw come on man, really? You're going to let the opinions of ONE SINGLE PERSON here (with the help of a few of us other party-hijacking hooligans-- just kidding but that's what we've been called, right?) on a rock band forum sway you against someone you previously supported and even voted for?
And come on, everybody knows that in this present period of time in our history no one has single damn chance of getting elected if they don't register Rep or Dem. And besides, why is it a problem that political parties be subject to change. Remember, at one point in history, the Republican party was the conservation (in today's terminology "environmental") party. We're not "hijacking" your party. We're trying to get the one person we see as best suited for the job elected. You get to choose: a business man who has not business running for the office, a woman whom far to many people distrust and who is STRONGLY tied to her corporate sponsors, or a good, decent honest man who want s to make life better for the average person. Seems like an easy choice to me. Bernie isn't perfect but look at the alternatives. No thanks!
To answer the question in the second paragraph: yes. This forum is where I find myself disgusted with Sanders. I listen to his speeches on C-Span -- not alarmed by Sanders. I listen to his interviews and commentary on the networks and NPR -- not alarmed by Sanders. I read articles in the major newspapers -- not alarmed by Sanders. I come here and it's doomsday this and doomsday that. You remind me with each post that I am not at all that far left, nor do I ever want to live in a country that is.
And really, the incessant Hillary bashing is just a major turn off. It's actually had the effect of making me admire her more for being able to withstand a lifetime of attacks. Sanders pledged early on that he would not run a negative campaign, and by and large he has not, until recently. But dang, he doesn't need to. His supporters have got it covered. You all have been brutally relentless, as bad as the Republicans. You can feel what you feel and say what you say, but the more you harp, the more I find reason to defend her because I find many of your criticisms irrational when looking at the larger political landscape.
In many ways I'm actually rather conservative, I never attacked Hillary but simply described what is known to be true (the truth is painful, I know), I'm not the thug you seem to think I am and, most importantly, I don't harp, I guitar.
Jeez man, relax, will ya!
Thug? And you are conservative?What? Please elaborate.
Knowing that Hillary has a vast political machine is not a painful truth. It's just reality. It's how she gets things done. The one fact you keep leaving out is that with every accusation hurled against her, she has not once been indicted for any crime -- because as sleazy as you think she might be, she operates within the law. They can't even get her for the email server, no matter how hard they've tried.
Free, haven't you noticed a pattern between you and everyone that doesn't love Sanders? Haven't you noticed the conflict that invariably ensues, with you as the common denominator?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
I've mentioned quite a while ago that I can't debate you (note, it has nothing to do with being personal, and has nothing to do with feelings.) I tend to post supportive links to my posts, you do not, nor have you been willing - for many months now - and you won't even acknowledge most facts in this election.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
The difference is my posts are my opinion, I'm not co-opting someone else's thoughts. For instance, I said the other day that the US is the most inclusive democracy in our nation's history. I didn't post a source for that because that statement is a culmination of my own reading and academic study. Now you promptly laughed at that so I asked you for a time period where it was more inclusive. You have failed to come forth but I didn't expect you to do so, because I'm actually right. It's a pretty easy argument when you think about it..
My point is, my arguments are my own. I have no links. If you want to challenge one of the facts that lead to my conclusion, feel free. And that's true for many of us here. We are informed by our own reading PLUS experience.
If you don't/can't see how your way of debate has no validity to it w/ no sources backing it up, and the refusal to acknowledge half the shit the DNC is pulling, there is no use.
That's funny. No one else here who I've debated has ever said that my style has no validity. Like I said, experience will allow you to formulate your own arguments. It will come.
It's funny to me how much Bernie sanders supporters start to sound like trump supporters the moment you disagree with them. Deflect, name calling, deflect.
Blame the establishment. Say everyone out to get them. Attack and name call. It's the trump and sanders game plan.
Thug? And you are conservative?What? Please elaborate.
Knowing that Hillary has a vast political machine is not a painful truth. It's just reality. It's how she gets things done. The one fact you keep leaving out is that with every accusation hurled against her, she has not once been indicted for any crime -- because as sleazy as you think she might be, she operates within the law. They can't even get her for the email server, no matter how hard they've tried.
Yes, I'm very conservative in some ways. First and foremost, I try to conserve natural resources as much as possible while remaining employed and living in the modern civilized world.
I'm very conservative financially. I believe in working hard, saving money, tithing and being responsible with spending.
I often dress conservatively. I often like to wear button down shirts (but stop short of pocket protectors) and polished shoes.
I open the car door for my wife and she is very happy that I do so.
I'm neat, tidy and fastidious.
That's all I can think of for now but, yes, I think those align with Bernie very well.
So I have answered you question because I believe it is only polite to so.
I won't be posting on these threads any more. The political threads here are beginning to sound like endless spin cycles. That's as much my fault as any ones. In fact, looking back on the last few years at my input, I really have to say I don't like where most of this has gone and I particularly don't like much of what I've written or the person I've become here. When I first came here I liked a lot of what I saw but one thing I didn't like was the sarcasm. Stone talks about how his generation is steeped in sarcasm and I don't care for that trait. And yet, look what I've become- bitter and sarcastic. I don't like the sarcastic asshole I am here so often these days. 65 is a good year to see change. I'm ready for change in myself. But I'm tired of trying to help change the world. It's not my job any more. Fuck it. (See? Thug? No, asshole. I would not have said that once. Time to get the old me back.)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
(regressing is fun, isn't it?)
All I'm saying is that it's possible to discuss and debate, and leave dickishness and condescension at the door.
Can't be that difficult, right?
I know that Hedonist is probably center right... GodFather is definitely right wing, PJSoul seems to be solidly left, Brian is very left, etc. But everyone else seems to be able to discuss the candidates, even passionately, without it devolving. I've disagreed with just about everyone here on some point or another, but it manages to stay civil. It would be great if you could think about that for a few minutes before your next post.
Edit - and I think you're Canadian, correct? Or at least not an American. You've made references as if you're not in the States.
And, no, believe it or not I am not that loyal a Bernie fan. Loyal enough to defend strongly what I believe, yes. To the death, no way.
“I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall in ruin before I would sell a friend to save them.” –Edward Abbey
We may meet at a show one day and get along fantastically. I would stay true to that Abbey quote. Politics is not that personal to me. It's a much bigger picture than me and you.
Yes.
Centre right?
shhhh, don't tell anyone.
The real irony is how awful a spokesperson you are for your candidate. I truly did like Bernie enough early in the process to vote for him in March. But following this thread since then has totally turned me off to him in so many ways. It has *informed* me enough to believe that he really would be a horrible president. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways through all of your *informing.* I've read every article you've posted in this thread, and you are single-handedly responsible for my no longer supporting Sanders. You really can't blame the main stream media for that. They did a much better job at getting me to push that Sanders button than you ever could. That is what I call irony.
We will see how many Bernie voters leave the fold in the general. Based on past elections, it won't be enough to turn the presidency over to Trump. Good riddance to the ones who don't vote for HRC. They're just a bunch of unsuccessful high-jackers, as far as I can tell, who can't form a viable party of their own so they tried to steal this one.
Don't try and use drama here, I thought this is a debate forum, not an opinion and lifestyle forum. Isn't that what All Encompassing Trip is for?
What good is a debate if you can't inject some of your own opinion and not just others?
Opinions can't help but become a part of debates - our experiences form our views, sure - and it's possible to exercise rationale along with that. It's also important how these views are presented (and also how some will summarily dismiss or shit on them).
And come on, everybody knows that in this present period of time in our history no one has single damn chance of getting elected if they don't register Rep or Dem. And besides, why is it a problem that political parties be subject to change. Remember, at one point in history, the Republican party was the conservation (in today's terminology "environmental") party. We're not "hijacking" your party. We're trying to get the one person we see as best suited for the job elected. You get to choose: a business man who has not business running for the office, a woman whom far to many people distrust and who is STRONGLY tied to her corporate sponsors, or a good, decent honest man who want s to make life better for the average person. Seems like an easy choice to me. Bernie isn't perfect but look at the alternatives. No thanks!
My point is, my arguments are my own. I have no links. If you want to challenge one of the facts that lead to my conclusion, feel free. And that's true for many of us here. We are informed by our own reading PLUS experience.
Although it still leaves a little wiggle room for the religious mind to debate.
And really, the incessant Hillary bashing is just a major turn off. It's actually had the effect of making me admire her more for being able to withstand a lifetime of attacks. Sanders pledged early on that he would not run a negative campaign, and by and large he has not, until recently. But dang, he doesn't need to. His supporters have got it covered. You all have been brutally relentless, as bad as the Republicans. You can feel what you feel and say what you say, but the more you harp, the more I find reason to defend her because I find many of your criticisms irrational when looking at the larger political landscape.
Jeez man, relax, will ya!
Just for fun, I would love for you to list all the conservative beliefs you espouse. You've said this to me before, and out of everything else, I find this statement to be most interesting. Please elaborate. In what ways do you consider yourself conservative? And what parts of the Sanders platform match those beliefs? Thug? And you are conservative?What? Please elaborate.
Knowing that Hillary has a vast political machine is not a painful truth. It's just reality. It's how she gets things done. The one fact you keep leaving out is that with every accusation hurled against her, she has not once been indicted for any crime -- because as sleazy as you think she might be, she operates within the law. They can't even get her for the email server, no matter how hard they've tried.
Blame the establishment. Say everyone out to get them. Attack and name call. It's the trump and sanders game plan.
The deflect, name calling, deflect is what liberals do.
Trump supporters merely name call (fight back) and roll with the punches when tested.
One of several reasons any notion of the word Socialism of any kind worries me...whether it comes through the democratic process or...
Drops mic
I'm very conservative financially. I believe in working hard, saving money, tithing and being responsible with spending.
I often dress conservatively. I often like to wear button down shirts (but stop short of pocket protectors) and polished shoes.
I open the car door for my wife and she is very happy that I do so.
I'm neat, tidy and fastidious.
That's all I can think of for now but, yes, I think those align with Bernie very well.
So I have answered you question because I believe it is only polite to so.
I won't be posting on these threads any more. The political threads here are beginning to sound like endless spin cycles. That's as much my fault as any ones. In fact, looking back on the last few years at my input, I really have to say I don't like where most of this has gone and I particularly don't like much of what I've written or the person I've become here. When I first came here I liked a lot of what I saw but one thing I didn't like was the sarcasm. Stone talks about how his generation is steeped in sarcasm and I don't care for that trait. And yet, look what I've become- bitter and sarcastic. I don't like the sarcastic asshole I am here so often these days. 65 is a good year to see change. I'm ready for change in myself. But I'm tired of trying to help change the world. It's not my job any more. Fuck it. (See? Thug? No, asshole. I would not have said that once. Time to get the old me back.)
People are hungering for more choices but The American political system excels at suppressing voices of opposition.
...much like this place.