Politicians sending others off to war

tempo_n_groove said:

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callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

ldent42 said:

Doesn't Israel have a mandatory service thing?

Also the military ain't all bang bang pew pew. They got doctors, nurses, priests, paper pushers, cooks, janitors, number crunchers. Pretty much any/every job in the civilian world has a military counterpart. No, that does not include artists or musicians. But they do have a paper so they must have writers/journalists. They have (or rather had) photographers.

I'm not saying I'm running to the recruiting office. I'm just saying that in certain areas the military is one of the largest employers and not everyone is a soldier.

I understand that, the problem is that there is not even close to enough room for those "skill positions". There are close to 20,000 med school graduates alone each year in the US. The very best get what they want and the rest get to play pew pew for the Masters of War.

rgambs said:

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tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

tempo_n_groove said:

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rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

How is it not a draft? Involuntary servitude is conscription in every way.
Exactly what good do you think it would do? Sure, there are plenty of punks that would benefit from the discipline, but what good would it do for productive members of society who don't have 2 years to waste?

I find the idea repugnant. You want the government to force me to join an organization with a proven record of complicity with rampant sexual assault, a proven record of crimes against humanity, a proven record of waging war for fiscal and political reasons, an organization which openly squelches critical thought, enforces draconian values, and even dictates ridiculous standards on grooming and appearance?

No, thank you. I would literally rather move to a 3rd world country, at least then I could still exercise my own values and hold to a system of ethics.

Sometimes criminals are practically drafted into the military. Either join the army or go to prison (and we all know how deplorable most US prisons are these days). It's used as a plea bargain condition.

jnimhaoileoin said:

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rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

How is it not a draft? Involuntary servitude is conscription in every way.
Exactly what good do you think it would do? Sure, there are plenty of punks that would benefit from the discipline, but what good would it do for productive members of society who don't have 2 years to waste?

I find the idea repugnant. You want the government to force me to join an organization with a proven record of complicity with rampant sexual assault, a proven record of crimes against humanity, a proven record of waging war for fiscal and political reasons, an organization which openly squelches critical thought, enforces draconian values, and even dictates ridiculous standards on grooming and appearance?

No, thank you. I would literally rather move to a 3rd world country, at least then I could still exercise my own values and hold to a system of ethics.

Or you could just move to Ireland, our army is completely benevolent

Yeah, that sounds a good bit better lol
I could see myself kicking back in the emerald homeland of Wilde and Years..I can see that nicely!

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

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PJ_Soul said:

Sometimes criminals are practically drafted into the military. Either join the army or go to prison (and we all know how deplorable most US prisons are these days). It's used as a plea bargain condition.

In which countries?

The USA. There are regulations about this (or not doing it), which are different for different branches of the military, but there are easy loop holes through most of them. More frequently, recruitment officers fish for recruits who have just been convicted or who have just been released from prison. The US military has actually increased their efforts there, using what are called "moral waivers". They are always on the look out for easy pickin's, and people who have just been released from prison are among the easiest. Of course they also hang around outside high schools in June so they can recruit all the people who are about to graduate but who didn't get good enough grades for college.

PJ_Soul said:

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PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Sometimes criminals are practically drafted into the military. Either join the army or go to prison (and we all know how deplorable most US prisons are these days). It's used as a plea bargain condition.

In which countries?

The USA. There are regulations about this (or not doing it), which are different for different branches of the military, but there are easy loop holes through most of them. More frequently, recruitment officers fish for recruits who have just been convicted or who have just been released from prison. The US military has actually increased their efforts there, using what are called "moral waivers". They are always on the look out for easy pickin's, and people who have just been released from prison are among the easiest. Of course they also hang around outside high schools in June so they can recruit all the people who are about to graduate but who didn't get good enough grades for college.

Actually, on this, my niece is due to finish high school in Virginia next year and they got calls to the house from the army looking to recruit. I find it a little creepy that they're actively targeting school kids like that

rgambs said:

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tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

How is it not a draft? Involuntary servitude is conscription in every way.
Exactly what good do you think it would do? Sure, there are plenty of punks that would benefit from the discipline, but what good would it do for productive members of society who don't have 2 years to waste?

I find the idea repugnant. You want the government to force me to join an organization with a proven record of complicity with rampant sexual assault, a proven record of crimes against humanity, a proven record of waging war for fiscal and political reasons, an organization which openly squelches critical thought, enforces draconian values, and even dictates ridiculous standards on grooming and appearance?

No, thank you. I would literally rather move to a 3rd world country, at least then I could still exercise my own values and hold to a system of ethics.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm too old to be drafted now, but I find the idea terrifying and abhorrent. There is no place for conscription in a free society. It should be considered the antithesis of freedom. I know I dreaded signing up for selective service when I turned 18 at the end of the 70's when Vietnam was still fresh in everyone's mind. I figured I could always make a run for the border (being a couple of hours from the border with Canada) if drafted. After years of not thinking about it, I was reminded a few years ago when my son turned 18 and had to sign up. So I had a little talk with him, and let him know that if he ever got the notice, and didn't want to comply, to get a suitcase packed and we'd figure out where in Canada we'd enjoy living.

Gambs, your second paragraph nailed it for me.

The reality is that we won't have a draft again anytime soon. Certainly not in my lifetime. It would be political suicide for any of the assholes in D.C. who tried to make it happen.