Politicians sending others off to war

Lost In Ohio

I'm watching (ok, mostly listening) to the "talking heads" on the news and they're talking about how a ton of politicians have zero military experience, but seem to be ok with sending others off to war, while they sit back in comfort.

I'm really thinking Eddie or the band said something about this...or was there a protest song? All I can easily come up with is "Masters of War" and "No More."

Is there anything more specific?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Everybody else's kids, but not theirs.

ldent42

Yea it was a line in a song. Cashing checks that others pay or something like that.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Marker in the Sand has a good reference
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay

CH156378

From aPJ cover:

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no, no
It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no

brianlux

"It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall"

-Phil Ochs, "I Ain't Marching Anymore"

ldent42

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Marker in the Sand has a good reference
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay

I was close

WhatYouTaughtMe

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Marker in the Sand has a good reference
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay

Great line. Wrong song! That's from World Wide Suicide.

Although Marker has one of my favorites.

"You've got both sides,
claiming killing in God's name,
but God is nowhere,
to be found conveniently."

(Not really on topic, sorry)

PJfanwillneverleave1

WhatYouTaughtMe said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Marker in the Sand has a good reference
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay

Great line. Wrong song! That's from World Wide Suicide.

Although Marker has one of my favorites.

"You've got both sides,
claiming killing in God's name,
but God is nowhere,
to be found conveniently."

(Not really on topic, sorry)

Thanks for that correction.
Draft feature posted first.
The words and songs blend.

brianlux

WhatYouTaughtMe said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Marker in the Sand has a good reference
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay

Great line. Wrong song! That's from World Wide Suicide.

Although Marker has one of my favorites.

"You've got both sides,
claiming killing in God's name,
but God is nowhere,
to be found conveniently."

(Not really on topic, sorry)

I would say spot on target. MITS is such a great song (one of my favorite's) and that line is definitely ant-war.

tempo_n_groove

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

jnimhaoileoin

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

callen

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

There is certainly a portion of the military comprised of people fighting for principle or values, but there is a significant portion fighting for lack of other options.

For the first time in a week and a half... Callen has a good point!

jnimhaoileoin

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

I guess I'm never going to understand it, coming from a country whose military only ever perform peacekeeping duties and where education is pretty much free

rgambs

jnimhaoileoin said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

I guess I'm never going to understand it, coming from a country whose military only ever perform peacekeeping duties and where education is pretty much free

Tens of thousands of kids are lost in our education system before they reach 10 years old!

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

There is certainly a portion of the military comprised of people fighting for principle or values, but there is a significant portion fighting for lack of other options.

For the first time in a week and a half... Callen has a good point!

I love you to Thirty.

dignin

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

The draft. It has happened before, it can happen again.

Jason P

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

The draft. It has happened before, it can happen again.

Technology and cost considered, the draft will not happen again. Unless the shit really hits the fan. Then we are all fucked.

tempo_n_groove

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

oftenreading

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

There would then be a preponderance of medical issues among the kids of the rich.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

The draft. It has happened before, it can happen again.

This was the first thing that popped into my head reading that post.

rgambs

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

ldent42

Doesn't Israel have a mandatory service thing?

Also the military ain't all bang bang pew pew. They got doctors, nurses, priests, paper pushers, cooks, janitors, number crunchers. Pretty much any/every job in the civilian world has a military counterpart. No, that does not include artists or musicians. But they do have a paper so they must have writers/journalists. They have (or rather had) photographers.

I'm not saying I'm running to the recruiting office. I'm just saying that in certain areas the military is one of the largest employers and not everyone is a soldier.

rgambs

ldent42 said:

Doesn't Israel have a mandatory service thing?

Also the military ain't all bang bang pew pew. They got doctors, nurses, priests, paper pushers, cooks, janitors, number crunchers. Pretty much any/every job in the civilian world has a military counterpart. No, that does not include artists or musicians. But they do have a paper so they must have writers/journalists. They have (or rather had) photographers.

I'm not saying I'm running to the recruiting office. I'm just saying that in certain areas the military is one of the largest employers and not everyone is a soldier.

I understand that, the problem is that there is not even close to enough room for those "skill positions". There are close to 20,000 med school graduates alone each year in the US. The very best get what they want and the rest get to play pew pew for the Masters of War.

rgambs

ldent42 said:

Doesn't Israel have a mandatory service thing?

Also the military ain't all bang bang pew pew. They got doctors, nurses, priests, paper pushers, cooks, janitors, number crunchers. Pretty much any/every job in the civilian world has a military counterpart. No, that does not include artists or musicians. But they do have a paper so they must have writers/journalists. They have (or rather had) photographers.

I'm not saying I'm running to the recruiting office. I'm just saying that in certain areas the military is one of the largest employers and not everyone is a soldier.

Yes, and the level of dissent there is terrifying, frankly, for a country with such a complicated conflict on it's hands.

tempo_n_groove

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

jnimhaoileoin

tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

In my country I wouldn't object so much, as we only ever perform peacekeeping duties. I would completely disagree with mandatory service in an army that performs anything other than defensive or peacekeeping duties

rgambs

tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

How is it not a draft? Involuntary servitude is conscription in every way.
Exactly what good do you think it would do? Sure, there are plenty of punks that would benefit from the discipline, but what good would it do for productive members of society who don't have 2 years to waste?

I find the idea repugnant. You want the government to force me to join an organization with a proven record of complicity with rampant sexual assault, a proven record of crimes against humanity, a proven record of waging war for fiscal and political reasons, an organization which openly squelches critical thought, enforces draconian values, and even dictates ridiculous standards on grooming and appearance?

No, thank you. I would literally rather move to a 3rd world country, at least then I could still exercise my own values and hold to a system of ethics.

jnimhaoileoin

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

callen said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

If you don't join the military then you won't have to worry about going to war. That's an easy way to look at it, no?

"Treating people just like pawns in chess"

That is a very very good point

On surface it appears to be a good point but it isn't. In poor communities the schools are shit and no manufacturing jobs so many poor kids join military to break out. So they make up the losses. Not the fortunate better off kids that have better opportunities The poor die in our wars, not rich kids.

You watch Michael Moore documentaries? He actually chases the senators and asks them why their kids aren't serving.

Years ago you had to have served to be considered for president. That's not the case anymore.

I actually think that every citizen should donate 2 years to military service. EVERY citizen. There would be no one to scoff at because only a medical reason would keep you out.

That is such a terrible idea for so many reasons. The economic impact of removing millions from the job force, the further glorification and justification of war, the sheer lunacy of forcing a brilliant mind to stagnate for 2 years... Artists, musicians, scientists and mathematicians, doctors and writers languishing in an organization that openly works against individuality and free thought and promotes slavish devotion to politicians that care little, if at all.
That would create a scary society.

This "terrible" idea works in many other countries quite well.
So scary society aside...
I'm not sure what economic impact you'd be talking about. They aren't going when they're in their 30's. No removing, it's not a draft, lol. They could go anytime before they were 24 like other countries.

It would do more great than harm.

How is it not a draft? Involuntary servitude is conscription in every way.
Exactly what good do you think it would do? Sure, there are plenty of punks that would benefit from the discipline, but what good would it do for productive members of society who don't have 2 years to waste?

I find the idea repugnant. You want the government to force me to join an organization with a proven record of complicity with rampant sexual assault, a proven record of crimes against humanity, a proven record of waging war for fiscal and political reasons, an organization which openly squelches critical thought, enforces draconian values, and even dictates ridiculous standards on grooming and appearance?

No, thank you. I would literally rather move to a 3rd world country, at least then I could still exercise my own values and hold to a system of ethics.

Or you could just move to Ireland, our army is completely benevolent

PJ_Soul

Sometimes criminals are practically drafted into the military. Either join the army or go to prison (and we all know how deplorable most US prisons are these days). It's used as a plea bargain condition.