The Death Penalty

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  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    Could you also argue an imcompetent prosecution?
    You can try to argue that if you want to. Have you got any evidence for that assertion?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    oftenreading said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competent defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    Could you also argue an imcompetent prosecution?
    You can try to argue that if you want to. Have you got any evidence for that assertion?
    The small number of cases that prisoners are sentenced to death due to an incompetent defense seem higher than that of a competent prosecution.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,537
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    oftenreading said:

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    oftenreading said:

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who dies and murders someone... they break this basic principle.

    They don't follow your idea. Why are we bound by it? Sometimes when you wrestle with pigs you get dirty.

    It's been said before (and fittingly will be said again given your bumblebee story)... without hesitation humans will trap mice when those creatures are doing nothing other than being mice and kill them. Yet... we take the high road with some mutant that rapes and mutilates children?

    Yeah. Not me. There's more value in a rodent or bumblebee than there is someone who kills someone's children. Sorry you can't see it this way.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    I still feel sorry for stepping on ants for fun when I was a kid.
    The justice system stepping snuffing the life out of an atrocious human I have no problem with.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,537
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    oftenreading said:

    Just ran across an interesting article on the decline in death penalty sentences in Virginia, which up until recently has been a hotbed of executions. So what's making the difference? Competence defense counsel. The article looks at the differences this makes at all stages, including the actual initial trial phase (i.e. cutting down on false convictions) and the sentencing phase (i.e. appropriately investigating and presenting the mitigating factors and holding the court accountable for the significance of the decision).

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/10/virginia_s_capital_defense_program_reduces_the_death_penalty.2.html

    This is good.

    The people we need to execute are those who have truly earned such a sentence.

    The only reason (reason #1, Callen) to hesitate with a sentence of death is the chance of executing someone who is innocent.
    no, reason number 1 is the idea that humans should not be allowed to decide who lives or dies.

    When someone takes it upon themselves to decide who dies and murders someone... they break this basic principle.

    They don't follow your idea. Why are we bound by it? Sometimes when you wrestle with pigs you get dirty.

    It's been said before (and fittingly will be said again given your bumblebee story)... without hesitation humans will trap mice when those creatures are doing nothing other than being mice and kill them. Yet... we take the high road with some mutant that rapes and mutilates children?

    Yeah. Not me. There's more value in a rodent or bumblebee than there is someone who kills someone's children. Sorry you can't see it this way.
    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    I have never spoken to someone's value. It is not for me to decide.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,705
    edited November 2015
    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,705
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    rgambs said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Except it's not 'murder'. It's justice in its most natural form.

    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    rgambs said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
    Are you saying they kill so they can go to prison?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    rgambs said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    rgambs said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    ^^^^
    Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

    Say what now?
    Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.
    Are you saying they kill so they can go to prison?
    Some yes.
    Their shitty existence of a life is much better on the inside.
    Their deluded minds (the only state in which one would kill) recognizes that and they commit the act.
    No remorse, pure psychotic.
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,705
    edited November 2015
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that you don't think its murder.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,705
    edited November 2015
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:



    We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

    Totally agree.
    Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.
    Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

    Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.
    Yeah I know.
    I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.
    Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).
    The system is getting refined though.
    Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.
    And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that you don't think its murder.
    Thirty Bills suggested it's not murder. I am saying it is. Do you think it's helpful for you to turn this into a conversation about the difference between him disagreeing with me that it's murder and him disagreeing with me that I think it's murder?
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    ^^^
    Just trying to stop the circular debate.
    It's not murder.

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