Should police pursue in a high speed chase?

Thirty Bills Unpaid · September 2015

I'm not saying give cops carte blanche to drive as fast as they want whenever they want.

I'm saying people had better be aware of emergency vehicles on the road- it is every driver's responsibility to have awareness while driving and the rule is pull over when service vehicles have their lights (visual) and siren (audible) on. Drivers are supposed to be aware of the fact that heightened speeds accompany lights and sirens. If a driver fails to recognize an emergency vehicle and pulls out in front of them or refuses to yield... that is on them.

There are obviously scenarios where police abuse the license we have given them to use speed. In these scenarios, I am for holding them accountable for any damage caused. Recklessly flying around a cobblestone street and plowing into a mother and child using a crosswalk would be one.

hedonist · September 2015

Thirty, I always have my window cracked at the least so I can hear the sirens (yes, a Pearl Jam reference

) . I've seen so many people completely unaware, just sitting there blocking the lane while the blaring and lights happen.

I don't care if it's a police car, fire engine, ambulance, whatever. Pay attention and get yer ass to the side!

PJ_Soul · September 2015

I figure it's git to be about common sense... though that is probably too much to ask.

Seems like a matter of real risk assessment done on the fly. How much risk is this person and the public and myself at if i don't chase this guy versus if i do, under the assumption that high speed police chases are very dangerous?

If the driver is known to be a mass serial killer or a terrorist with a trunk full of explosives ... yeah, chase the fucker. If the driver is some drunk yahoo, no, take down his license plate and wait for him at his house because a drunk in a high speed chase is a lot more dangerous than a drunk slowly weaving home. Is the driver suspected of having someone captive? Chase the fucker or you might never see the kidnapped person again. Is the person someone who just sold a dime bag on the street corner? Fuck off, starting a high speed car chase for that kind of thing should result in the cop having to be retrained (in a world.wjeremcops get good training of course. Not this world).
I think most car chases start when a cop simply tried to pull someone over for whatever reason/excuse and the driver speeds away and the cops have absolutely no idea who is in the car or why they are running. That is crazy. Just get the plate number and let them go. Find them later and charge them for evading police.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · September 2015

PJ_Soul said:
I figure it's git to be about common sense... though that is probably too much to ask. Seems like a matter of real risk assessment done on the fly. How much risk is this person and the public and myself at if i don't chase this guy versus if i do, under the assumption that high speed police chases are very dangerous?

If the driver is known to be a mass serial killer or a terrorist with a trunk full of explosives ... yeah, chase the fucker. If the driver is some drunk yahoo, no, take down his license plate and wait for him at his house because a drunk in a high speed chase is a lot more dangerous than a drunk slowly weaving home. Is the driver suspected of having someone captive? Chase the fucker or you might never see the kidnapped person again. Is the person someone who just sold a dime bag on the street corner? Fuck off, starting a high speed car chase for that kind of thing should result in the cop having to be retrained (in a world.wjeremcops get good training of course. Not this world).
I think most car chases start when a cop simply tried to pull someone over for whatever reason/excuse and the driver speeds away and the cops have absolutely no idea who is in the car or why they are running. That is crazy. Just get the plate number and let them go. Find them later and charge them for evading police.

But what if that person that tries to evade the police is doing so for good reason? In other words... what if they are a dangerous person and after letting them go because they took off... they hurt someone? If I'm the parent of a daughter who is raped by a serial rapist that was detained two days before the crime, but not arrested because they drove away rendering the law useless... I'd be furious.

I said it earlier: the 'go to' move cannot be as simple as racing away knowing the cops are not going to pursue you. If you're a criminal... what have you got to lose by driving away every time you're pulled over knowing a pursuit is not going to occur?

Once again... people are dissecting police behaviours when ultimately... this is about offender behaviour. If people would stop breaking the law... we wouldn't need police racing about.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · September 2015

brianlux said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:
No. I dont. But they are no better than the rest of us and as such shouldnt be given deferential treatment. The danger of their notwithstanding.

No scenario warrants 106 mph on surface streets. Period. The risk is too great.

Poor judgement isnt the word given long standing department policy on chases. Which for this deputy he wasnt even an active part of the initial chase.

I live here. This shit aint cool.

FWIW in my interactions with LE I have always been respectful and received the same in return. Its because I understand how stressful the job can be and appreciate those who do it with integrity and public service in mind.
If you don't... then it's hard to tell that with your stream of comments in the various police threads coupled with your reluctance here to acknowledge the fact that in many cases the driver of the vehicle which never yielded to the service vehicle has made a grievous error in judgement: at a minimum contributing to the crash.

You still never responded to my question to you: do you still feel that drivers are inherently prone to gross errors in judgement and therefore share little responsibility in these motor vehicle accidents where an emergency vehicle is involved?

A 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.
At hose speeds , how much adrenalin is pumping ? How amped is that deputy when he arrives on scene? How likely is he going to act in a manner suited to the situation?
About as much adrenalin as the next time a serial killer gets his fix or robber gets his.
Left to get away they will always find their fix.
You hear sirens you know what to do.
If you don't then don't be on the road.
Pedestrian or otherwise.
Absolutely. In fact, were all conditioned for that. Except the deaf. And maybe some who are handicapped. It isn't worth it. Take their picture, apprehend them later, save lives.

If anything these people are the ones with heightened senses.
Oculary in particular.
They are safer then the rest of mindless pedestrians.

PJ_Soul · September 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:
I figure it's git to be about common sense... though that is probably too much to ask. Seems like a matter of real risk assessment done on the fly. How much risk is this person and the public and myself at if i don't chase this guy versus if i do, under the assumption that high speed police chases are very dangerous?

If the driver is known to be a mass serial killer or a terrorist with a trunk full of explosives ... yeah, chase the fucker. If the driver is some drunk yahoo, no, take down his license plate and wait for him at his house because a drunk in a high speed chase is a lot more dangerous than a drunk slowly weaving home. Is the driver suspected of having someone captive? Chase the fucker or you might never see the kidnapped person again. Is the person someone who just sold a dime bag on the street corner? Fuck off, starting a high speed car chase for that kind of thing should result in the cop having to be retrained (in a world.wjeremcops get good training of course. Not this world).
I think most car chases start when a cop simply tried to pull someone over for whatever reason/excuse and the driver speeds away and the cops have absolutely no idea who is in the car or why they are running. That is crazy. Just get the plate number and let them go. Find them later and charge them for evading police.
But what if that person that tries to evade the police is doing so for good reason? In other words... what if they are a dangerous person and after letting them go because they took off... they hurt someone? If I'm the parent of a daughter who is raped by a serial rapist that was detained two days before the crime, but not arrested because they drove away rendering the law useless... I'd be furious.

I said it earlier: the 'go to' move cannot be as simple as racing away knowing the cops are not going to pursue you. If you're a criminal... what have you got to lose by driving away every time you're pulled over knowing a pursuit is not going to occur?

Once again... people are dissecting police behaviours when ultimately... this is about offender behaviour. If people would stop breaking the law... we wouldn't need police racing about.

That is simply not possible for them to know so can't be considered IMO. I think the police should only be doing something that endangers the public if they have actual knowledge that it's going to worth it. But hey, I am also in favour of "safe" pursuit... chase until it gets dangerous... which would often be pretty quickly. But there is a LOT of car chase footage in this world, and IMO, 90% of the ones I've seen were not worth the risk or damage. If this method isn't working time for cops to think of some new methods. How about some kind of system to make it easier to throw out spikes or just have someone up ahead to pick up the trail or something?? And I have mentioned many times recently that this would be a great way to put drones to good use. Seems like the simplest and most effective option to me.

I don't think talking about how the problem is the criminals not the cops is useful at all. The criminals aren't going anywhere, realistically (though legalizing drugs would help a LOT). We have to look at what we do have control over in these situations, and that is how the police conduct themselves in order to come up with the best outcome overall.

brianlux · September 2015

hedonist said:
And B, I get what you're saying up there, but as a pedestrian, don't you also look before stepping into the street?

Generally I just run as fast as I can and hope for the best.

Well, OK, that's true but again, I'm talking about a situation where a lot of people are moving around and where you don't expect high speeds. What if a driver who is parallel parked looks, sees no one coming, starts to pull out and suddenly another vehicle comes charging along at three or four times the normal speed? There are just too many possible scenarios where someone could have gotten hurt or killed. High speed chase on a freeway? Probably OK but still dangerous. High speed chase in a neighborhood? Quite dangerous. High speed chase on a relatively narrow busy downtown street? Highly dangerous.

rr165892 · September 2015

Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.

oftenreading · September 2015

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.

Interesting thought, although I have no idea how they would possibly ID a particular vehicle with precision and then affect it. Maybe the license plate is enough to positively identify it, but maybe not; thieves can certainly switch plates. Imagine your car suddenly stopping when you're driving down the highway. I don't have On-Star; does it allow verbal communication with the driver?

oftenreading · September 2015

I should also say - the policy of our police here is not to engage in high speed chases unless the risk of the perpetrator is high, and yet they generally seem to catch the person regardless, generally by positioning other units up ahead to box them in.

Dirtie_Frank · September 2015

If criminals knew that police will not pursue them if they drive fast then the criminals would speed away all the time.

brianlux · September 2015

Dirtie_Frank said:
If criminals knew that police will not pursue them if they drive fast then the criminals would speed away all the time.

Yes, unless they do this...

oftenreading said:
I should also say - the policy of our police here is not to engage in high speed chases unless the risk of the perpetrator is high, and yet they generally seem to catch the person regardless, generally by positioning other units up ahead to box them in.

which makes more sense than endangering innocent lives, doesn't it?

muskydan · September 2015

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Should they?
At times yes.
Wouldn't want that serial killer to get away.
Other times no.
Either way whatever happens from a high speed chase would be criticized from the general 10c public.
So maybe the cops should do nothing instead.
That'll learn em.

One of the most basic on point opinions I have ever read on here…Bravo

I can't wait to read more on what people have to say about this topic..

rr165892 · September 2015

oftenreading said:

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.
Interesting thought, although I have no idea how they would possibly ID a particular vehicle with precision and then affect it. Maybe the license plate is enough to positively identify it, but maybe not; thieves can certainly switch plates. Imagine your car suddenly stopping when you're driving down the highway. I don't have On-Star; does it allow verbal communication with the driver?

Yes

brianlux · September 2015

muskydan said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Should they?
At times yes.
Wouldn't want that serial killer to get away.
Other times no.
Either way whatever happens from a high speed chase would be criticized from the general 10c public.
So maybe the cops should do nothing instead.
That'll learn em.
One of the most basic on point opinions I have ever read on here…Bravo

I can't wait to read more on what people have to say about this topic..

What about what has been said so far (other than the one written in verse form you mentioned above), Dan?

callen · September 2015

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.

NOOOOOOO

Thought of spending big bucks on a machine that gives others access to my privacy pisses me off.

One of my cars collects data that can be retrieved by the courts to be used against me in court. Need to find way to clear data with push if a button. Won't buy a new gm or other car with tracking devices.

Love driving my old analog iron.

rr165892 · September 2015

callen said:

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.
NOOOOOOO

Thought of spending big bucks on a machine that gives others access to my privacy pisses me off.

One of my cars collects data that can be retrieved by the courts to be used against me in court. Need to find way to clear data with push if a button. Won't buy a new gm or other car with tracking devices.

Love driving my old analog iron.

Your being a snob.Lock yourself out once and On star becomes your best friend.Also it's a sat phone link.
During the Hurricanes when phones went down(cell and land line) I was able to make and receive calls from my vehicle.

callen · September 2015

rr165892 said:

callen said:

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.
NOOOOOOO

Thought of spending big bucks on a machine that gives others access to my privacy pisses me off.

One of my cars collects data that can be retrieved by the courts to be used against me in court. Need to find way to clear data with push if a button. Won't buy a new gm or other car with tracking devices.

Love driving my old analog iron.
Your being a snob.Lock yourself out once and On star becomes your best friend.Also it's a sat phone link.
During the Hurricanes when phones went down(cell and land line) I was able to make and receive calls from my vehicle.

Hey understand value proposition of on star, (family and did stint managing fleet of cars which used gm and not worth it Sure you've heard of jeeps being hacked recently. Never give someone ability to shut down my car. This is my freedom. Ability to get away.

brianlux · September 2015

callen said:

rr165892 said:

callen said:

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.
NOOOOOOO

Thought of spending big bucks on a machine that gives others access to my privacy pisses me off.

One of my cars collects data that can be retrieved by the courts to be used against me in court. Need to find way to clear data with push if a button. Won't buy a new gm or other car with tracking devices.

Love driving my old analog iron.
Your being a snob.Lock yourself out once and On star becomes your best friend.Also it's a sat phone link.
During the Hurricanes when phones went down(cell and land line) I was able to make and receive calls from my vehicle.
Hey understand value proposition of on star, (family and did stint managing fleet of cars which used gm and not worth it Sure you've heard of jeeps being hacked recently. Never give someone ability to shut down my car. This is my freedom. Ability to get away.

I agree Callen. Weighing the pros and cons of something like On Star I tend to be wary of yet another way to hand over control to someone or some institution.

I still think the best way around this is have to cop photo the vehicles license and call for help apprehending over endangering others by high speed chase- at least in neighborhoods or downtown areas where others are more apt to get hurt.

PJ_Soul · September 2015

callen said:

rr165892 said:
Unless it's an extremely violent perp,Or a major threat to the gen pub.Police should hang back.Not worth the collateral damage.

Another thought.With services like On-Star and others that can alter the ignition of a vehicle via Sat communication,What if law enforcement had the capability to tap into that existing resource and technology to ignition kill vehicles that are fleeing?This already exists,just a matter of using it.
NOOOOOOO

Thought of spending big bucks on a machine that gives others access to my privacy pisses me off.

One of my cars collects data that can be retrieved by the courts to be used against me in court. Need to find way to clear data with push if a button. Won't buy a new gm or other car with tracking devices.

Love driving my old analog iron.

Yeah, I don't approve of anything like that. I wouldn't want cops to have access to the function of our cars. Most of us are law abiding citizens, so we shouldn't all be subjected to that level of control by law enforcement.

Again, drones that can be released specifically to follow suspects. The suspects will never even know it's following them. Seems like the ideal solution to me.

Should police pursue in a high speed chase?

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