What if Humans Aren’t the Most Intelligent Creatures on the Planet?

whispering hands · May 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Hedo... I'll serve up a couple more, but this one is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqimOYOQjJ8

Let me find my favorite, where the pod teaches their young to hint as a collective group.

By the way hunting as a collective unit is a rarity shared by only a few species! The list includes Killer whales, Dolphins, Wolves, Lions, and meerkats.

whispering hands · May 2015

http://youtu.be/p3xmqbNsRSk

This is crazy smart!

callen · May 2015

whispering hands said:

callen said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
Have thought about this many times. Some seriously high IQ people I've met can't use hammer and nail. Different types of intelligence and can see how whales and other mammals could have intelligence we'll never comprehend.

Also it would be a big problem for our psyche if we found out all those cows that we slaughter and eat had high intelligence on another level.
I like this thought line, but it made me laugh, cause having been around cattle for at least half my working life, I'd cry with surprises laughter if this ever came to pass.. But a very interesting point indeed.

Yes I did pick extreme example and have cows living next to me so haven't observed any intelligence. But as with horses look into their eyes and do wonder. Also the calves are inquisitive and playful.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2015

This wasn't the clip I was looking for, but it shows them in the hunt. The whales organize themselves into chasers that chase the prey into other whales that wait for them (surrounding them in a way):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufTyNMZNgw

I could add more- they hunt birds... and they wash seals off ice by creating waves. They have so many different techniques that work for the specific prey they intend to eat. As the guy in the second clip said, it's cultural.

whispering hands · May 2015

callen said:

whispering hands said:

callen said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
Have thought about this many times. Some seriously high IQ people I've met can't use hammer and nail. Different types of intelligence and can see how whales and other mammals could have intelligence we'll never comprehend.

Also it would be a big problem for our psyche if we found out all those cows that we slaughter and eat had high intelligence on another level.
I like this thought line, but it made me laugh, cause having been around cattle for at least half my working life, I'd cry with surprises laughter if this ever came to pass.. But a very interesting point indeed.
Yes I did pick extreme example and have cows living next to me so haven't observed any intelligence. But as with horses look into their eyes and do wonder. Also the calves are inquisitive and playful.

And honestly, they aren't dumb. They can be trained. They just has no interior intelligence. ( meaning without trainingnof any sort, they just muddle along).. Like sheep, cows can get 'lost' in a fence corner. It's not until they see an older cow turn out of it that they learn to 'escape'. The worst part is.. Often there are no older cows that have had to escape this scenario. I've seen cows starve to death in a corner!

brianlux · May 2015

callen said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
Have thought about this many times. Some seriously high IQ people I've met can't use hammer and nail. Different types of intelligence and can see how whales and other mammals could have intelligence we'll never comprehend.

Also it would be a big problem for our psyche if we found out all those cows that we slaughter and eat had high intelligence on another level.

That's an interesting perspective, Callen, the idea that intelligence and our manual dexterity don't always coincide. Some very smart people are good with their hands, but some of the very smartest not so. I have a friend who received a PhD from M.I.T. in his early twenties. His IQ is somewhere in the high 150's. He literally has a hard time tying his shoes and brushing his hair. Which leads me to wonder- why couldn't some sea mammals be more intelligent than us? Surely not because they can't perform heart surgery or paint the Sistine Chapel. I'm led to consider that manual dexterity may not at all reflect greater intelligence. And those videos are fascinating and might indicate the same thing.

hedonist · May 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Hedo... I'll serve up a couple more, but this one is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqimOYOQjJ8

BAD. ASS.

I'm going to have to watch the others from home (work doesn't "like" when we stream videos. pffft!)

Last-12-Exit · May 2015

Why would any species not need to evolve? I don't think animals evolve out of necessity. The stall could occur out of the lack of intelligence.

PJ_Soul · May 2015

Obviously most think that production/technology/science = demonstrably most intelligent by far.
I tend to disagree. I think we just use our intelligence in a different way. A way that people consider superior.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2015

PJ_Soul said:
Obviously most think that production/technology/science = demonstrably most intelligent by far.
I tend to disagree. I think we just use our intelligence in a different way. A way that people consider superior.

We do so many things that betray any level of intelligence we might boast about as well. I mean, look at your decision to scrap the U2 show in your backyard.

(kidding)

brianlux · May 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:
Obviously most think that production/technology/science = demonstrably most intelligent by far.
I tend to disagree. I think we just use our intelligence in a different way. A way that people consider superior.
We do so many things that betray any level of intelligence we might boast about as well. I mean, look at your decision to scrap the U2 show in your backyard.

(kidding)

For example?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYHci_KYIT4

rgambs · May 2015

Last-12-Exit said:
Why would any species not need to evolve? I don't think animals evolve out of necessity. The stall could occur out of the lack of intelligence.

Evolution occurs almost exclusively from necessity. Random mutation is a very small part of the process, intelligence of the species isn't part of the process either. A species may evolve intelligence as a trait, just like claws or feathers, but the claws don't drive the process... It's all about natural selection, i.e. the survival of the fittest.

If a species does not compete for food, is suited to a stable environment, and is not under stress of predation, evolution will drastically slow. Random mutation and sexual selection will still exert force, but it Will make an insanely slow process effectively halt.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2015

brianlux said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:
Obviously most think that production/technology/science = demonstrably most intelligent by far.
I tend to disagree. I think we just use our intelligence in a different way. A way that people consider superior.
We do so many things that betray any level of intelligence we might boast about as well. I mean, look at your decision to scrap the U2 show in your backyard.

(kidding)
For example?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYHci_KYIT4

Hahahahhaa!

Dignin, Hugh, and RG out at RG's spread!

rgambs · May 2015

Hahahhaa how dumb do you have to be to sit past the cut lol
I was just out pruning 'mater plants, luckily I didn't fall in the process.

Last-12-Exit · May 2015

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
Why would any species not need to evolve? I don't think animals evolve out of necessity. The stall could occur out of the lack of intelligence.
Evolution occurs almost exclusively from necessity. Random mutation is a very small part of the process, intelligence of the species isn't part of the process either. A species may evolve intelligence as a trait, just like claws or feathers, but the claws don't drive the process... It's all about natural selection, i.e. the survival of the fittest.

If a species does not compete for food, is suited to a stable environment, and is not under stress of predation, evolution will drastically slow. Random mutation and sexual selection will still exert force, but it Will make an insanely slow process effectively halt.

I should have said exclusively out of necessity. I understand your point.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2015

rgambs said:
Hahahhaa how dumb do you have to be to sit past the cut lol
I was just out pruning 'mater plants, luckily I didn't fall in the process.

Evolution at work!

Tings be gettin' bedder e'er since ya dun went an falled from dat tree!

HughFreakingDillon · May 2015

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
No, there are many incredible things/abilities thatoccur in nature that I find utterly astounding, but I dont equte those with overall intelligence. I am not dismissing anything, I just have a different way of defining it.

I just think the general feeling is that people who are unhappy with the way humans conduct themselves, whether through individual experience, or in mass disappointment with the perceived failure of man with regards to other species and the Earth as a whole, are the ones that seem to have a general bias towards humankind and their intelligence.

With all of the wrongs man has committed against itself and its environment, that does not alone make us lesser than other beings. Look around. Look at the sheer marvel of what we have created (regardless of what personal value you may put on those achievements, they are remarkable nonetheless), and how we have been able to elongate the very lifespan of our own species. The development of medical science alone, in my mind, makes it indisputable.

in·dis·put·a·ble
ˌindəˈspyo͞odəb(ə)l
adjective: indisputable
unable to be challenged or denied.

Interesting, coming from you, Hugh. So we're done here, eh?

Not sure what "coming from you" is supposed to imply, but yes, in my opinion, in the contrxt of my definition, it is no contest.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2015

whispering hands said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
No, there are many incredible things/abilities thatoccur in nature that I find utterly astounding, but I dont equte those with overall intelligence. I am not dismissing anything, I just have a different way of defining it.

I just think the general feeling is that people who are unhappy with the way humans conduct themselves, whether through individual experience, or in mass disappointment with the perceived failure of man with regards to other species and the Earth as a whole, are the ones that seem to have a general bias towards humankind and their intelligence.

With all of the wrongs man has committed against itself and its environment, that does not alone make us lesser than other beings. Look around. Look at the sheer marvel of what we have created (regardless of what personal value you may put on those achievements, they are remarkable nonetheless), and how we have been able to elongate the very lifespan of our own species. The development of medical science alone, in my mind, makes it indisputable.

Necessity is the mother of invention! If we had a stable environment and abundance in the resources we need as a species, we wouldn't be seeing the "achievements" that make us the kings of the Earth. It's not about emotion for me, just raw brain potential...in which we probably are the winners, but it's a tighter race than many think.
I agree with you on this! Again like I said before.. The only reason animals never evolved further, is because there was no reason to.

Why do some believe humans "needed" these resources? We survived for thousands of years without the technological advancements beyond simple tools. We dont need any of this. We wanted it.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

brianlux said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:
Obviously most think that production/technology/science = demonstrably most intelligent by far.
I tend to disagree. I think we just use our intelligence in a different way. A way that people consider superior.
We do so many things that betray any level of intelligence we might boast about as well. I mean, look at your decision to scrap the U2 show in your backyard.

(kidding)
For example?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYHci_KYIT4

Hahahahhaa!

Dignin, Hugh, and RG out at RG's spread!

???

brianlux · May 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:
If we weren't the most intelligent animals on the planet, we wouldn't be on top of the food chain. Luckily dinosaurs aren't around anymore.

I haven't read the article yet. But it looks interesting.
The dumb kids regularly beats up the smart kid.
that's not really an accurate summary of what Last 12 was trying to say, in my view.

Sure, if we think of intelligence outside the box as being in harmony with nature and our overall surroundings, one could argue that humanity is actually less intelligent than in years past (as the article also mentions-like untouched tribes). But then we have to redefine intelligence. I think intelligence is seperate from action. Sure, many humans destroy the earth, litter, kill each other, leave the lights on when they aren't home, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean that COLLECTIVELY the human race is less intelligent than a whale or a dolphin.

many humans are pleasantly ignorant of their negative surroundings, completely happy, do nothing but good, but does that make them more intelligent than someone with a higher IQ? I don't know about that.

I don't consider that intelligent, in the traditional sense of the word. Intelligent to me is brain capacity. Emotional intelligence is differentiated for a reason. there is emotional, and there is cranial.

I quoted this one, but my response to you is more to the body of your posts in this thread.
Even if intelligence is brain capacity alone, you are dismissing some serious brain capacities. The power of "echo location" is a brain capacity that is very impressive, and many ocean dwellers have spatial memory that far surpasses our own.
There is much to be considered in defining intelligence, for instanceLeBron James is one of the most intelligent men on the planet in a particular fashion... It takes serious neural firing to perform such athletic feats.
A vast majority of the brain is connected to the visual system, and we don't even have particularly good vision.
No, there are many incredible things/abilities thatoccur in nature that I find utterly astounding, but I dont equte those with overall intelligence. I am not dismissing anything, I just have a different way of defining it.

I just think the general feeling is that people who are unhappy with the way humans conduct themselves, whether through individual experience, or in mass disappointment with the perceived failure of man with regards to other species and the Earth as a whole, are the ones that seem to have a general bias towards humankind and their intelligence.

With all of the wrongs man has committed against itself and its environment, that does not alone make us lesser than other beings. Look around. Look at the sheer marvel of what we have created (regardless of what personal value you may put on those achievements, they are remarkable nonetheless), and how we have been able to elongate the very lifespan of our own species. The development of medical science alone, in my mind, makes it indisputable.

in·dis·put·a·ble
ˌindəˈspyo͞odəb(ə)l
adjective: indisputable
unable to be challenged or denied.

Interesting, coming from you, Hugh. So we're done here, eh?

Not sure what "coming from you" is supposed to imply, but yes, in my opinion, in the contrxt of my definition, it is no contest.

No disrespect meant at all, Hugh. What I mean is that you have always supported the idea of being able to dispute an idea. I was just a bit surprised to see you use the term "indisputable" is all. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

What if Humans Aren’t the Most Intelligent Creatures on the Planet?

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